China's Economy

CanOz said:

Notting, where did you get this information? Please provide links or people's names that were quoted.....
CanOz

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Careful what you say now Notting, CanOz may set the secret police onto you.

You may be taken from your home in the middle of the night; You may be taken to a secret prison and your family may have no knowledge of where you are; you may be tried for rumourmongering/sedition which crimes may carry the death penalty if you are found guilty; you may not have the right to legal representation; you may not even get to attend your own trial; you may be found guilty and sentenced to death; and you may be kept alive for as long as it takes to harvest your organs for the national organ donation campaign.

Strewth CanOz...you're scaring me.:1zhelp:

CanOz said:

Notting, where did you get this information? Please provide links or people's names that were quoted. In my eight years in china I've not come across anything like this, even though I've lived in three cities in three different provinces....but perhaps I'm missing something??
CanOz

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You probably don’t have much to do with the rural communities.
There are countless examples of this kind of thing in China. I have spoken to and heard first hand accounts from many people and seen things with my own eyes. Of course I will not mention names or stuff like that. I will find a couple of 'general examples.'
What is more concerning about this is that when people do manage to get footage out of China which is virtually impossible the western news very rarely publishes and even the odd you tube videos that get put up are taken down in a small amount of time or sabotaged with hundreds of videos or stories propagandising the opposite these are strategically designed to taking up room in the search engines so the truth gets buried.
The classic communist propaganda response to these kinds of findings is:
1. Have you ever been to China?
2. Where is your evidence?
3. We will investigate this matter, as if it's an anomaly(if something is blatantly obviously happening).
4. The Chinese citizens that can go abroad are told - What you read in Western Media is propaganda trying to bring down the Chinese people.(if something does get published.) So all the expats from China don’t believe what they see in Western Media, - “The enemy.”
5. If someone protests or complains they will be set upon by police in ordinary clothing with rubber hoses, beaten till bloated to twice their body size normally. If that doesn’t stop the poor person, it will be done again with iron bars. If that doesn’t work it will be off to re-education camp.

My computer has been hacked and all the stuff I had on China is gone!! That’s how pervasive they are!
I will just post some things I can get from else where.

Here is a very recent example of Chinese communist party business that got out of control only because it became known to the public, a rare thing. http://www.iol.co.za/news/world/chinese-mom-wins-labour-camp-appeal-1.1547105 The above article is a watered down load of bull**** designed to report a little but not upset China.
This is what it's more like http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/08/09/woman-sent-to-labor-camp-in-china-s-latest-abuse-outrage.html
This is what they do with people daughters. Property that's nothing!!

Now let's try that again.
You sold your daughter into prostitution, didn't you?!
The Chinese Communist party member is a pillar of Chinese society, isn't he?!


Link for Reports on property abuse
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19894292

"The forced eviction of people from their homes and farmland without appropriate legal protection and safeguards has become a routine occurrence in China, and represents a gross violation of human rights obligations on an enormous scale," Amnesty said.

Many cases are "sudden and violent, sometimes resulting in death", harassment and in one instance, someone being buried alive.

Ms Duckworth said self-immolations caused by evictions were also on the rise. "We documented 41 reports of self-immolations from 2009 to the end of 2012," she said. - BBC

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Amazing Canoz that even a free person like you with all your experience and time in China has never heard about the way the Communist Chinese party enrich themselves off the people and achieve growth and property bubbles.
It's a testiment to the Chinese Communist Party's Propaganda skills silencing and brainwashing abilities on all levels!!!


Link for Reports on property abuse

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-17661224

Chinese officials show this much confidence in the future!!



And if you don't get away or implicate Communist party members, you get death -

nulla nulla said:

Careful what you say now Notting, CanOz may set the secret police onto you.

You may be taken from your home in the middle of the night; You may be taken to a secret prison and your family may have no knowledge of where you are; you may be tried for rumourmongering/sedition which crimes may carry the death penalty if you are found guilty; you may not have the right to legal representation; you may not even get to attend your own trial; you may be found guilty and sentenced to death;

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It's all true. I've heard it first hand from a Chinese lady who had absolutely no axe to grind. In fact she was quite accepting of the communist party and their ways. The Party is so secretive that such news rarely sees the light of day. She described having to be most careful around middle ranking officials, rather than the upper or lower end officials. You'll be fine so long as you don't step out of line. Since the punishment is so harsh, obedience is almost absolute across the population.

Progressive thoughts and beleifs are a threat to communist party rule by fear, bribary, blackmail etc. - if you want a first hand account of a labour camp for resisting the Chinese Communist Progress machine in your country:

From yahoo news.

A new report from China Labor Watch alleges that workers at Apple's supplier Pegatron are working 11-hour shifts, six days a week, for $1.63 (US$1.50) an hour in order to turn out a less expensive version of the iPhone.
With 20 minutes of each shift unpaid, each worker earns a total of $291 (US$268) a month before overtime ”” less than half the local average of $831 (US$764) and far below the basic living wage necessary to survive in Shanghai, one of China's most expensive cities. As a result, employees must put in long overtime hours.

The New York-based rights group, which sent undercover investigators into three factories and conducted nearly 200 interviews with workers, says it found at least 86 labor rights violations.

Average weekly working hours in the three factories were between 66 hours and 69 hours, a direct violation of China's 49-hour statutory limit, China Labor Watch said. The group claimed that workers were forced to sign forms indicating that their overtime hours were less than the actual levels.

The report also alleges that over 10,000 underage and student workers, from 16 to 20 years of age, do the same work as adult employees, with some students paid lower wages due to schools' internship fees.

Claims 'new to us', says Apple

Apple has been in close contact with the group for several months, yet the report contains "claims that are new to us," and those will be probed immediately, Carolyn Wu, a Beijing-based spokeswoman for Apple, said in a phone interview with Bloomberg.

Apple became the first technology company to join the Washington-based Fair Labor Association last year after criticism by human-rights organisations about conditions at suppliers including Foxconn Technology Group. Pegatron factories "are even worse than those at Foxconn," CLW Executive Director Li Qiang said in a statement today.

"We will investigate these new claims thoroughly, ensure that corrective actions are taken where needed and report any violations of our code of conduct," Ms Wu said. "We will not tolerate deviations from our code."

Cupertino, California-based Apple has conducted 15 audits at Pegatron facilities since 2007, covering more than 130,000 workers making the company's products, Ms Wu said. The most recent survey in June found that Pegatron employees making Apple products worked 46 hours per week on average, she said.

Pegatron will investigate the allegations, President and Chief Executive Officer Jason Cheng said in an e-mailed statement. Pegatron hasn't seen the China Labor Watch report, Pegatron plants in China haven't hired any underage workers, and weekly work hours during the past two to three months have averaged 45-50 hours, Chief Financial Officer Charles Lin said by phone.

Spotlight on labour conditions

Working conditions at Apple's suppliers have come under the spotlight in recent years following a series of suicides in 2010 at Foxconn, which manufactured products for companies such as Apple, HP and Sony.

Scrutiny of labour conditions in developing nations has intensified in the wake of the Rana Plaza garment factory collapse in Bangladesh, which left 1,129 people dead.

Last month, a number of Bangladeshi workers interviewed by the ABC claimed that they had been physically abused and threatened while working in sweatshops used by well-known Australian retailers including Rivers, Coles, Target and Kmart.

Garment production for Australian companies in Bangladesh has increased 1,500 per cent since 2008.

But according to a survey conducted by not-for-profit aid organisation Oxfam, almost 70 per cent of Australians would pay more for their clothes if it meant workers were given an acceptable wage and worked in safe factories.

With input from Bloomberg and ABC

How Apple and its suppliers get away with this is just appalling. We were a supplier to McDonald's. McDonald's has a very strict ethics policy as did we. When they came to do our annual audit they nearly failed us because one of our maintenance guys had worked 8 hours too much in one month during harvest season, the only time we permitted much overtime.

The difference here of course is applying your policies in good faith, to the letter of the law or better.

Apply needs a bit more bad press before they really start to take this seriously.

The free world companies like Apple are using Chinese run factories.
They are not Apple factories. They just make apple products as well as other products.

It's got nothing to do with Apple it's China and the above factory is luxurious compared to what Chinese companies do to their own workers.

The Chinese allow and promote the publication of work conditions for free world companies in China as a way of trying to destroy free world companies, put the Chinese off buying free world products and keep the Chinese people in the dark about what happens in the communist run labor camps and companies making Chinese products which are far far worse than the free world company conditions.

The whole Apple thing is a deflection. As was the Toyota issues, RIO issue etc etc

notting said:

The free world companies like Apple are using Chinese run factories.
They are not Apple factories. They just make apple products as well as other products.

It's got nothing to do with Apple it's China and the above factory is luxurious compared to what Chinese companies do to their own workers.

The Chinese allow and promote the publication of work conditions for free world companies in China as a way of trying to destroy free world companies, put the Chinese off buying free world products and keep the Chinese people in the dark about what happens in the communist run labor camps and companies making Chinese products which are far far worse than the free world company conditions.

The whole Apple thing is a deflection. As was the Toyota issues, RIO issue etc etc

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Most of AAPL's supplier are likely Taiwanese, the Chinese simply can't maintain the quality. In any case they are AAPL's suppliers.

Strange logic there notting. Pull ya head out - apple are responsible for their supply chain.

You make it sound like it would be fine for apple to use a North Korean gulag to produce iPhones.

Trembling Hand said:

Strange logic there notting. Pull ya head out - apple are responsible for their supply chain.

You make it sound like it would be fine for apple to use a North Korean gulag to produce iPhones.

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Not at all.

These are all Chinese run factories. The Chinese authorities have always been aware of it. No one in China is innocent that's how the communist thugs keep control. You can't do business if you obey the law so you have to break it and then they hold that over you and use it when it is convenient. This is no secret. They are targeting foreign companies it's just business to them. Companies like Apple can tell the Chinese thugs running the factories to treat the workers well, that doesn't mean the Chinese will, they profit from cheating Apple and foreign companies as well making more money out of using the slaves regardless of what Apple or tell.
If it was up to me no one would be allowed to use factories in China or any country that uses their workers like slaves.
That's not going to happen because the west has decided that China would do it any way, would make it even worse for the Chinese people, so relatively it's a compromise.
Most of what you have bought is made in China under worse circumstances. Where's your head?

notting said:

Not at all.

These are all Chinese run factories. The Chinese authorities have always been aware of it. No one in China is innocent that's how the communist thugs keep control. You can't do business if you obey the law so you have to break it and then they hold that over you and use it when it is convenient. This is no secret. They are targeting foreign companies it's just business to them.

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This is just biased rubbish and I've had enough. I've lived here for 8 years and while i cannot deny that this stuff goes on here amounst a population of 1.3 billion, its certainly not the norm in the three cities that i have LIVED in. You get your stuff from the internet, you have not lived here.

You have got a vendetta against China, not Russia, North Korea or anyone else that behaves in the ways that you constantly shout about.

Consider yourself warned.

I get my information from victims and genuine news stories if that is wrong to talk about then that's very disappointing and sad. I think your better than that.
It's up to you.

CanOz said:

This is just biased rubbish and I've had enough. I've lived here for 8 years and while i cannot deny that this stuff goes on here amounst a population of 1.3 billion, its certainly not the norm in the three cities that i have LIVED in. You get your stuff from the internet, you have not lived here.

You have got a vendetta against China, not Russia, North Korea or anyone else that behaves in the ways that you constantly shout about.

Consider yourself warned.

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Allow me to chime in because I also have a long connection with China and have lived there for more than 8 years. There is a world of difference between living a comfortable expat life in China and life for the people who live there. While there are hundreds of thousands who have benefited from the opening up of China it still does not come close to supporting the rights and conditions enjoyed by workers in the West. Nor is it accurate to suggest that a company like Apple doesn't know what's going on in the factories it gets its products from. To suggest that would be like saying the Southern Plantation owners didn't know what was going on in their fields or how such low labour costs were achieved.

CanOz said:

This is just biased rubbish and I've had enough. I've lived here for 8 years and while i cannot deny that this stuff goes on here amounst a population of 1.3 billion, its certainly not the norm in the three cities that i have LIVED in. You get your stuff from the internet, you have not lived here.

You have got a vendetta against China, not Russia, North Korea or anyone else that behaves in the ways that you constantly shout about.

Consider yourself warned.

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Realy scaring me now Canoz. Twice now you have attacked notting. He may be a ratbag and then again he may be right. But you seem biased yourself. Perhaps you could stand back and be objective about it? After all, right or wrong, we still have freedom of speech & freedom of the press in Australia.

saroq said:

There is a world of difference between living a comfortable expat life in China and life for the people who live there.

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My wife and her family are Chinese mate...

CanOz said:

My wife and her family are Chinese mate...

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Now you're just getting nasty. By the way my ex-wife and her family are Chinese too Mate!

saroq said:

Now you're just getting nasty. By the way my ex-wife and her family are Chinese too Mate!

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No, i'm not getting nasty at all, but i don't appreciate you assuming that i'm living an insulated expat life oblivious to all that goes on around me. which is what you were assuming.

Now, if you'll excuse me i need to go start a thread and abuse the Russian government about how they hunt down and execute oligarchs.....They really piss me off