DeepState
Multi-Strategy, Quant and Fundamental
- Joined
- 30 March 2014
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From skc in thread "Shares Outstanding vs price (darkhorse70)" within the Beginner's Lounge
1. Observe and study the market
2. Develop hypothesis to explain behaviour observed
3. Acquire new knowledge and data to check and test hypothesis
4. If hypothesis is valid, try to develop trading strategies around it
5. Repeat step 1
Everytime you go through this loop you learn something new
I am rapt with nearly everything written by nearly everyone. Thank you DeepState. I realise that you are looking for an experienced contributor but is it okay if I can add some input??I read this and was totally rapt.
How about any learning for a beginner? There are some great beginner threads here. Should I spend more time everyone's posts and less time with pondering what the market is doing?Efficient learning is really tough in this type of environment.
I made mistakes with timing and mis-reading charts. I have to forgive myself and start again.How do you cope with such high uncertainty when seeking to learn?
It is very early days for me. I can't answer this.How do you monitor efficacy of your approach to learning?
1. Is it okay if I can add some input??
2. How about any learning for a beginner? There are some great beginner threads here. Should I spend more time everyone's posts and less time with pondering what the market is doing?
I made mistakes with timing and mis-reading charts. I have to forgive myself and start again.
3. It is very early days for me. I can't answer this.
... 3. Neither can I.
Some of the proponents espouse the 10 thousand hours concept. It takes 10 k hours to become a really solid expert in any field (chess, violin, law..) and pretty much anyone can do it. I don't believe that. I think we all have different gifts which make us unique and our gifts may not be suitable for every endeavor.
I am very sure that I could become an expert on the subject of football...I'm sure it's within my ability to learn all the rules in detail, memorise the names of players on every team, who won each of the past 20 grand finals and so on.
I have never had even the slightest interest in the game however. It bores me beyond belief.
I am therefore almost certain to fail any attempt at becoming an expert on the subject, for the simple reason that I have absolutely no interest in it....
Question(s): Efficient learning is really tough in this type of environment. Logically prepared strategies with strong backtest fail with alarming regularity. Stuff you think is worn out suddenly springs back to life without warning.
How do you cope with such high uncertainty when seeking to learn?
What is your standard of proof required to change?
How do you monitor efficacy of your approach to learning?
IMO, if significant time and effort has been spent working out why x did y, but its still unclear (step 3), then move on.
Look for easier prey, but keep an eye on the anomaly for future reference.
1. Observe and study the market
2. Develop hypothesis to explain behaviour observed
3. Acquire new knowledge and data to check and test hypothesis
4. If hypothesis is valid, try to develop trading strategies around it
5. Repeat step 1
Everytime you go through this loop you learn something new
However you have come upon this loop, it is exactly that related to expertise development and is very seriously undertaken by the most elite in any endeavor where skill and effort are related to outcome. Guys like you.
I read this and was totally rapt. It is rare. If you respond, thanks.
My first question related to high and low uncertainty environments and the application of expertise loops. Something like chess has no uncertainty. All the rules are known and never change. Then you get into financial markets where many things don't make sense for long periods of time. Feedback loops are long and mashed up with other factors whose interaction is weird and often never seen before, or only slightly similar. Worse, as soon as someone cracks the market, they get cracked as the markets figure out how they are doing it and replicate it. That's high uncertainty. You have a hard time figuring out probabilities at all and outcomes are often a...crap shoot.
You work in trading with pretty short horizons. My understanding is that this is pretty noisy stuff
How do you cope with such high uncertainty when seeking to learn?
1. From my view the reason people have so much trouble is they fail to fulling embrace the correct steps to lead to understanding then haven't got a hope in hell of doing the hard repetitive work of practise and review that is required to actually develop expertise. If your hypothesis are incorrect but have formed your belief system you will have an extremely hard time practising something that is always going to fail. Yet at the same time if this is part of your fundamental belief system you will probably never be able to give up on the idea. End result is stuck in a process that doesn't work yet too hard to give up on.
2. For example the two bits I have underlined of yours are in direct opposition to my own believes. As a result I have been able to find 'something' in what you call "pretty noisy stuff" and repeatedly practise and review that practise to learn and grow skills. As the world lines up with my view it makes a self-fulfilling feedback loop to catch interest which then feedbacks into enthusiasm which feeds more practise and review and on and on.
In addition to sorting out all the noise, how do you judge success, or the validity of the hypothesis? Just because one made money 3 years in a row does not mean he/she was right, perhaps just lucky. Statistically, it takes a very large number of overperforming years before you can confidently attribute result to skill, rather than luck.
Gee I would disagree. How do you come up with the idea that 3 years is not proof but could be luck. I doubt for a start if you are discretionary you would actually be trading the same after 3 years. Rarely does a market stay that static. But if we are talking short term trading that is literally 1000s of trades. If you equity curve is smoothly moving in the right direction that is proof.
Hi TH,
I am referring to this:
View attachment 59712
And therein lies the difficulty - how/when do you change approaches, knowing that it takes years to be certain that any one approach is right.
With short term trades, you are right, it's more data and should be easier to draw conclusions from. But to counter that - thousands of trades in a market that is moving up over 3 years may produce a very different result in a falling market. So you still need years of data.
I reckon you could tell statistically in quite a short time with most short term trading. Remember this is not about beating a trending market or hanging around for a long term trend. You have to basically be flat at very regular intervals ie end of each day or every few days. There is no way to be getting a ride from a trending market because trends happen in overnight gaps not in buying the open and selling at the close. A long term trader/investor is judged on their decisions only a few times a year, luck can easily play a role. Short termers are judged many times a day every day.
However you have come upon this loop, it is exactly that related to expertise development and is very seriously undertaken by the most elite in any endeavor where skill and effort are related to outcome. Guys like you.
My first question related to high and low uncertainty environments and the application of expertise loops. Something like chess has no uncertainty. All the rules are known and never change. Then you get into financial markets where many things don't make sense for long periods of time. Feedback loops are long and mashed up with other factors whose interaction is weird and often never seen before, or only slightly similar. Worse, as soon as someone cracks the market, they get cracked as the markets figure out how they are doing it and replicate it. That's high uncertainty. You have a hard time figuring out probabilities at all and outcomes are often a...crap shoot.
You work in trading with pretty short horizons. My understanding is that this is pretty noisy stuff but your report a month or so ago of your second year in Propex (?) suggests that you are achieving high hit rate and risk managing very well. Even your trade frequency (which isn't massive for a trader) basically backsolves for very nice average return if you are betting symmetrically without elevating exposure into losses as a pairs guy. If you are martingale, then I'd come to a slightly different conclusion, but still positive of course given the record you have posted and the limited market directionality.
In my world, that's an amazing outcome. We don't trade with anything like that kind of frequency but we didn't enjoy the liquidity advantage (at the time...hehe).
Question(s): Efficient learning is really tough in this type of environment. Logically prepared strategies with strong backtest fail with alarming regularity. Stuff you think is worn out suddenly springs back to life without warning.
How do you cope with such high uncertainty when seeking to learn?
Do you find that your worldview changes a lot or only incrementally or all over the place depending...
How different is what you are doing today from, say, 6 months ago, 1 yr or 2 yrs ago?
What is your standard of proof required to change?
How do you monitor efficacy of your approach to learning?
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