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Anzac Day

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The high cost of War..



61,720 Australians lost their lives in WW1

39,429 Australians lost their lives in WW2

520 Australians lost their lives in the Vietnam War

A sobering reminder, so that we don’t forget.

“Lest we forget”

Skate.
 
I have a plaque in my garden ,made by an uncle ,which says Militia 1939 etc.When he got back from the islands in 1945s he was subject to some of the experimental medical treatment....made him impotent amongst other ailments.He died in 1983 aged 63.I still have his heavy army coat.
Anyone see the Peace Institutes built as local halls after the first world war?Came across an abandoned one on a backroad in SA.
 
Went to the Mandurah service this morning massive turn out

"Lest we forget"
 
ANZAC day becomes more ironic every year.

"Lest we forget"

Considering everyone has forgotten what they were fighting for or even who they were fighting, it's so strange to say 'Lest we forget'.

Most Australians now stand against what they died for!
 
I've been dying to make this very comment, well said.
 
You can add 346 killed in Korean War 1959-1953, 281 are buried in the Pusan War Cemetry.
Often called the forgotten War.
 

Both grandfathers fought in France WWI, 4 uncles WWII brother in-law Vietnam

I haven't forgotten and I don't stand against what they fought for clearly you are unconnected or fail to understand Australian culture.
 
Sdajii said:
Considering everyone has forgotten what they were fighting for
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I am not convinced that the soldiers themselves knew.

————
I have become a bit cynical about ANZAC Day myself.

To me it’s a sad day of reflection.

But the cynical side of me see’s the glorification of the soldier, and the way (especially in a America) military service is held in such high regard eg allowing soldiers etc to board planes first and other such public displays, as not really a way to show respect for that soldier, rather I see it as making sure soldiers are looked up to.

It’s a way to make sure young idealistic men who want to earn respect of peers and their family will continue enlisting.
 
IFocus said:
Both grandfathers fought in France WWI, 4 uncles WWII brother in-law Vietnam

I haven't forgotten and I don't stand against what they fought for clearly you are unconnected or fail to understand Australian culture.
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You really are a galah. At least you know it.



It's an interesting question, how much they understood what they were fighting for. I think most had some idea though. Primarily that battle and war was about the British empire (back then Australians were still very loyal to the motherland) and race had a lot to do with it back then too - the keep Australia white policy was very much alive and well at the time, officially and unofficially.

I'm not exactly taking a side either way on whether what they were fighting for was good or bad; soldiers have fought for their countries or empires since countries and empires existed, sometimes willingly, sometimes by coercion or manipulation. That's a separate (and very interesting) issue, but what I'm saying is that it's ironic for people to say 'lest we forget' when they have forgotten what it was all about, and it is especially ironic for people to say it when they do not even share the ideals. I think if we're going to commemorate history, we should understand it in its true context. I suppose the next war isn't far away now (looking at the insanity in the world today, it's difficult not to have some awareness that many people psychologically need that shake up... it's a sad state of affairs), and it will bring some big lessons for the survivors, which can be forgotten at some point after we die, which will perhaps be shortly before the next big one.
 
They are like us. Complex reasons for doing anything.
Keeping our way of life, many were Union members winning the 40 hour week and 4 weeks holiday.
Anzac day is Australian not American and as such is about Rembrance. If you ever attend a dawn service you will realise this.
I had 3 great uncles in WW2 and I can tell you they never talked about it.
I was quite upset about the comments and those agreeing with them.
The far left and far right have a lot in common.
 

You're partly right about it not being about Australia. Bizarre that you would feel the need to point out it's not about America!

Originally it was to commemorate the ANZAC (Australia and New Zealand Army Corp) slaughter, but yes, it has since been broadened. Sort of inappropriate to keep the name ANZAC Day with that being the case, but whatever. If they wanted to scrap ANZAC Day and replace it with a more broad and deliberately vague 'war is bad, let's just focus on acknowledging that people died in war and that's sad', it would be fine.

What you are saying is either naive or disingenuous. Every ANZAC Day we are told that they (the ANZACs) gave their lives 'for us' so that we could 'have this way of life' or 'They died for our freedom'. The focus is usually on the ANZACs and what they supposedly died for, which is becoming increasingly nebulous. When I was a little kid in school we learned about it pretty much as it was (They died for the empire, they were loyal to the crown, they didn't want the empire, including Australia, to be invaded and taken by foreigners, etc), but now people talk about 'our freedom' (which makes no sense) and I heard a surprising number of people this year talking about them having died for freedom of speech!

Yes, officially it is now said to be about all people who have died in all wars. But clearly this is not the original story, or the story as most people understand it, or what it is still literally named after. I am sure if we are not kidding ourselves, most people still think 'lest we forget' refers to the ANZACs and what they died for. If not, it has had a vague and gradual shift over the years which is fundamentally antithetical to the notion of 'lest we forget'!
 
Sdajii said:
It's an interesting question, how much they understood what they were fighting for. I think most had some idea though. Primarily that battle and war was about the British empire (back then Australians were still very loyal to the motherland).
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I certainly believe they thought they were fighting for Australia and the motherland.

But, That’s not really what WWI was even about, it was a complicated mess that even is debated to this day as to what started it.

It was very much akin to a footy brawl where what the fight is about is not really known but you start punching the others guys and their friends just because.
 

WW1 was a complete waste of time and lives and we shouldn't have become involved.

Britain was not at risk, but maybe British pride was at the cost of hundreds of thousands of lives.

'Footy brawl' is a very apt description imo.
 
I don't exactly agree, but if you want to say they fought for nothing (it's not what they'd have said at the time, but yes, more than anything they'd have been told 'do it for England' or something roughly equivalent so you could sort of make the point), then it makes it even more ridiculous to be grateful to the ANZACs for their sacrifice which has allowed us 'what we have today', because according to you, their deaths were actually just completely meaningless not just in outcome but in the very initial intentions before their deaths occurred.

Again, this begs the question of what we are supposed to not be forgetting when we say 'lest we forget'. You can not deny that different people would have different guesses as to what it was and that those guesses have changed over time, which means we obviously haven't remembered, which makes it an incredibly ironic thing to be saying. The day literally doesn't even have the same official meaning as it originally did.

I can't say lest we forget because most of us forgot long ago, but I do encourage people to actually learn the history and discover what it is 'lest we forget' originally referred to.
 
Sdajii said:
Again, this begs the question of what we are supposed to not be forgetting when we say 'lest we forget'.
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Isn't "lest we forget" referring to not forgetting the people who sacrificed their lives rather than not forgetting the cause they fought for? Whether the cause or causes that were fought for are seen retrospectively as worthy or unworthy, as least those who fought did it because they were asked to do it and it is their sacrifice we should not forget.
 

So this requires or at least allows us to completely forget about the history which may help us going into the future, and simply to remember the fact that people died and perhaps to be sad about it?

If we take this approach, it is no less ironic, and arguably much more so. Being sad about something which happened, saying lest we forget, but completely forgetting what caused, why it happened, and how it can be avoided in the future. The irony here is that while saying lest we forget, we are forgetting the very things which may be of value to us. We are causing the deaths we mourn to be in vain, through our mostly willful desire to forget, while saying lest we forget!

I completely agree with the actual meaning of 'lest we forget'! There are a lot of important lessons we are forgetting! How ironic to say lest we forget on a day commemorating events we have forgotten, to our detriment!
 
Sdajii said:
If we take this approach, it is no less ironic, and arguably much more so. Being sad about something which happened, saying lest we forget, but completely forgetting what caused, why it happened, and how it can be avoided in the future.
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But your question was what lest we forget refers to. The people attending the ceremonies are clearly thinking of their fallen friends and relatives. They carry old photographs or memorabilia of their loved ones or old comrades. One never hears the cause being discussed or the, in most cases, futility of it all.

Discussing and arguing the reason they all died is a different matter. Of course that should be discussed and argued about so that we learn from history. But at ANZAC commemorations it is not the place to do it. There are plenty of opportunities to discuss that aspect if one chooses to do it.

I recall years ago slogans being painted on commemorative sites just prior to ANZAC day decrying the glorification of war. They were so far off the mark when it came to what was being commemorated.
 

I agree with you about what people attending ceremonies who have lost loved ones are thinking about. They are primarily thinking about those loved ones, and for many of them, little else. I am not arguing with you there.

Most people don't attend the ceremonies, most discussions on ANZAC day backyard BBQs, social media, workplace discussion and school assemblies the day before, etc etc are not about that though. You're right about what you say about the actual ceremonies, and it's important we don't confuse each others' words about referring to something other than what they do. I am talking about how most people view it, which is very different from the views of the majority of the type of people who make the effort to attend a dawn service every year. I am not such a person, and most of the people I know have only been to one or two, many have never been to one, I think I've personally only been to two. Of the few friends I have who do attend every year, I think all of them agree very much with my thoughts about this and related issues, although some of them have further thoughts I don't agree with all of, though I respect their thoughts.

I also completely agree that ANZAC Day is not about glorifying war, I don't think many people have that misconception, and while I have met a very few idiots who think that's what it is, I've certainly never personally come across or known of anyone actually using ANZAC Day to glorify war. Only a few idiots think that's what it's about. That type of idiot does have a tendency to be very vocal and active unfortunately, as in the terrible example you mention.
 
Sdajii said:
Only a few idiots think that's what it's about.
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I met some ex servicemen on forums who have that view.

That ANZAC day is some sort of recruitment drive by the Armed Forces, and that they themselves would be able to forget one day seeing their mates heads blown off .
 
SirRumpole said:
I met some ex servicemen on forums who have that view.

That ANZAC day is some sort of recruitment drive by the Armed Forces, and that they themselves would be able to forget one day seeing their mates heads blown off .
Click to expand...

That's sad. I'm not surprised to hear that such people exist, but I'm sure they're not proportionately common.

It's difficult to see anything about ANZAC Day in any context which is actually set up as a recruitment drive. It's always a sombre affair. There will always be a few exceptions to any rule when it comes to people and their points of view.
 
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