Query on Dales Pty Ltd Brisbane - flogging software

An update on my position with Dales. I have been contacted by Consumer Affairs and they are following up my complaints. I suggest that ANYONE who has been conned by these people get in touch with Consumer affairs and state your case. The more people who complain the more weight will be given to our argument and therefore we will be more likely to get a refund.
Vivienne

Yes, I am glad to say that I was finally refunded by Dales after four months of stress. In my last posting, I mentioned that I wrote to Dales attaching the emailed letter of CAV who basically said that based on the information I have given CAV, Dales seemed to have contravened the Fair Trading Act on rules for Telemarketing and that CAV would personally ring them if they still refuse to refund me. I must say Dales fought till the end to keep the money. I had to send Dales atleast 5 letters before I got refunded. They had relied on all sort of deceitful tactics to take people's money and the same deceitful tactics to refuse a refund. They're reasoning for refusing a Full refund were

- change of mind
- it wasn't a telemarketing agreement because after the initial call I was supposedly to have rang them to continue negotiations.
- they said I had used the software and the cost of this was the full depreciation of software
- that there were numerous precedents where software has been used and in which case the court has ruled that it would not be fair to refund.

Dales also denied that they had rang me on a public holiday. In response to this, I attached my telephone records and email exchanges clearly evidencing that they had contacted me on a public holiday and that I couldn't have rang them to 'continue negotiations' as the only time I rang them was after they had already emailed me the authorisation forms (which happened to be on March 12 public holiday). They then responded back saying that they will refund me once the software package has been returned in accordance with the provisions of Section 67 J (4) of the FTA such as in a condition substantially as good as when they were taken.

When I returned the package, Dales then wrote back saying that I failed to comply with the above and that 'their records show' that I had installed and used the package. They said that they regard the cost of this to be the full depreciation cost of the software! (Give me a break!). They said there were numerous precedents in which the court has ruled that it would not be fair to refund in such case when the software has been used. To this, I angrily wrote back to them saying that I had enough of the nonsense they kept coming up with. Right from my first letter of request for a refund (one and a half weeks after receiving software) I already told them that I did install the software but that was as far as I got. I was never able to download any data from Netquote and I did not run the program at all. They kept saying 'our records show' 'our records show' when they were in fact just lying. They have the ability to monitor the software whether it has been used or not. They know full well that I never got to run it and no data was passed on this software at all and I never got to trade. I never used it. As for their mention of 'numerous precedents' - this is typical of Dales. They thought they'd throw that in as a last attempt to discourage me from pursuing the matter further or taking it to court. They quoted a 'so-called' precedent 'Austral vs Baker' which I cannot find in the internet and in which they never attach any documents to support whatever they are saying. It is probably a TOTALLY different case altogether. To this I responded back to them with two precedents emailed to me by CAV. One precedent 'Kiley vs MCI Technologies' (a company very similar to Dales) is particularly interesting in that the person has actually installed the software and run it a bit but the court ruling was still in favour of the consumer. If you want to read these precedents look at

Kiley vs MCI Technologies

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/vic/VCAT/2006/2543.html

And the Law v MCI Technologies

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/vic/VCAT/2006/415.html

I suppose Dales run out of anymore reasonings to refuse a refund or they got stressed too by the mounting pressure from me and other complainants. In my last letter, I told them that if they do not refund me by the end of the month I will also claim for damages resulting in their contravention of the FTA. I told them I would claim for the stress they had put me in and for the interest on the credit card.

Finally, on the last Friday of July I got the cheque for the full amount which only got cleared last week

Here are some of the list I just want to highlight on what Dales has contravened (Fair Trading Act Victoria)

- they do not send any proper documents for terms & condition of sale whatsoever
- they do not offer to record conversation over the phone to prove that the consumer has been given an 'explicit' informed consent
- they do not advise you of your '10-day cooling-off' rights over the phone
- they do not provide a cancellation notice together with the contract that the consumer can use to cancel a telephone marketing agreement
- they rang on a public holiday
- they failed to comply with the telemarketing rule as when to cease negotiation. According to the telemarketing rule in Victoria hanging up abruptly during the call amounts to a request to cease (see posted comment of swhmale)

According to FTA information must be truthful. Facts should not be exaggerated and comparisons with competitors should be accurate. Communications must comply with other provisions of the Fair Trading Act; for example, they must not be misleading or deceptive.

And why don't they record conversation or make proper documentations for the terms and condition of sale, it is this very reason that their telemarketing tactics are misleading, deceptive and exaggerated!!

Attached to my cheque refund Dales then now tells me 'This Company further reserves its right to rely on this correspondence and payment as a plea or bar to any future proceedings.' Are they kidding? Who can bar anyone from giving evidence in court. To all those who have been conned, should you people end up getting together to take them to court, I am here to support and give evidence.

All the best.

Hi Joyannoyed

We are having the same problems and they are taking the same line with us.

We have done all the things suggested here contacting consumer affairs and ASIC

Our last letter quoted the so called legal precedent. Ours was Trumpet software Pty Ltdv Ozmail
and Global Newspapers v Jeff Thompson

Joyannoyed I was wondering whether it would be possible to get the letters you sent them emailed to me so I can use them to continue our battle for a refund. Dont you love their last line: our customer service department is always ready to help you experience the full benefits of TTS ownership!!!

How is everyone else going with their fight for a refund.

joyannoyed said:

Yes, I am glad to say that I was finally refunded by Dales after four months of stress. In my last posting, I mentioned that I wrote to Dales attaching the emailed letter of CAV who basically said that based on the information I have given CAV, Dales seemed to have contravened the Fair Trading Act on rules for Telemarketing and that CAV would personally ring them if they still refuse to refund me. I must say Dales fought till the end to keep the money. I had to send Dales atleast 5 letters before I got refunded. They had relied on all sort of deceitful tactics to take people's money and the same deceitful tactics to refuse a refund. They're reasoning for refusing a Full refund were

- change of mind
- it wasn't a telemarketing agreement because after the initial call I was supposedly to have rang them to continue negotiations.
- they said I had used the software and the cost of this was the full depreciation of software
- that there were numerous precedents where software has been used and in which case the court has ruled that it would not be fair to refund.

Dales also denied that they had rang me on a public holiday. In response to this, I attached my telephone records and email exchanges clearly evidencing that they had contacted me on a public holiday and that I couldn't have rang them to 'continue negotiations' as the only time I rang them was after they had already emailed me the authorisation forms (which happened to be on March 12 public holiday). They then responded back saying that they will refund me once the software package has been returned in accordance with the provisions of Section 67 J (4) of the FTA such as in a condition substantially as good as when they were taken.

When I returned the package, Dales then wrote back saying that I failed to comply with the above and that 'their records show' that I had installed and used the package. They said that they regard the cost of this to be the full depreciation cost of the software! (Give me a break!). They said there were numerous precedents in which the court has ruled that it would not be fair to refund in such case when the software has been used. To this, I angrily wrote back to them saying that I had enough of the nonsense they kept coming up with. Right from my first letter of request for a refund (one and a half weeks after receiving software) I already told them that I did install the software but that was as far as I got. I was never able to download any data from Netquote and I did not run the program at all. They kept saying 'our records show' 'our records show' when they were in fact just lying. They have the ability to monitor the software whether it has been used or not. They know full well that I never got to run it and no data was passed on this software at all and I never got to trade. I never used it. As for their mention of 'numerous precedents' - this is typical of Dales. They thought they'd throw that in as a last attempt to discourage me from pursuing the matter further or taking it to court. They quoted a 'so-called' precedent 'Austral vs Baker' which I cannot find in the internet and in which they never attach any documents to support whatever they are saying. It is probably a TOTALLY different case altogether. To this I responded back to them with two precedents emailed to me by CAV. One precedent 'Kiley vs MCI Technologies' (a company very similar to Dales) is particularly interesting in that the person has actually installed the software and run it a bit but the court ruling was still in favour of the consumer. If you want to read these precedents look at

Kiley vs MCI Technologies

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/vic/VCAT/2006/2543.html

And the Law v MCI Technologies

http://www.austlii.edu.au/au/cases/vic/VCAT/2006/415.html

I suppose Dales run out of anymore reasonings to refuse a refund or they got stressed too by the mounting pressure from me and other complainants. In my last letter, I told them that if they do not refund me by the end of the month I will also claim for damages resulting in their contravention of the FTA. I told them I would claim for the stress they had put me in and for the interest on the credit card.

Finally, on the last Friday of July I got the cheque for the full amount which only got cleared last week

Here are some of the list I just want to highlight on what Dales has contravened (Fair Trading Act Victoria)

- they do not send any proper documents for terms & condition of sale whatsoever
- they do not offer to record conversation over the phone to prove that the consumer has been given an 'explicit' informed consent
- they do not advise you of your '10-day cooling-off' rights over the phone
- they do not provide a cancellation notice together with the contract that the consumer can use to cancel a telephone marketing agreement
- they rang on a public holiday
- they failed to comply with the telemarketing rule as when to cease negotiation. According to the telemarketing rule in Victoria hanging up abruptly during the call amounts to a request to cease (see posted comment of swhmale)

According to FTA information must be truthful. Facts should not be exaggerated and comparisons with competitors should be accurate. Communications must comply with other provisions of the Fair Trading Act; for example, they must not be misleading or deceptive.

And why don't they record conversation or make proper documentations for the terms and condition of sale, it is this very reason that their telemarketing tactics are misleading, deceptive and exaggerated!!

Attached to my cheque refund Dales then now tells me 'This Company further reserves its right to rely on this correspondence and payment as a plea or bar to any future proceedings.' Are they kidding? Who can bar anyone from giving evidence in court. To all those who have been conned, should you people end up getting together to take them to court, I am here to support and give evidence.

All the best.

Click to expand...

Congratulations Joy and well done for sticking to your guns.

Hi all - at last I will have my final opportunity to secure a refund from Dales through my application to VCAT - Victorian Civil & Administrative Tribunal on 22nd October.

I am keen to muster as much support and evidence that I can present at my hearing. If anyone is willing to help - it would be very much appreciated.

What would help is statements re. their telemarketing tactics and claims that are made of their software system. The law is very specific re. telemarketing practices - so the more who can demonstrate a consistent breach of the law by Dales in their approach and tactics the better the chance of success.

Any help would be greatly appreciated

Nixtixx.
Sorry I am too late to help you. I only seen the post tonight 23 October 2007. I would appreciate any information on your outcome though.
I have enclosed my dispute letter to show what happened in my dealings with Dales. I am sorry to say I bought the program as well. I tried to get my money back via the bank saying the program was not as it was described to me. I have also sent many e-mails and registered letters to Dales
The bank did an investigation into the transaction and seed because I authorised it I was not covered under the satisfaction guarantee of purchase on a credit card. I have enclosed a cop of the letter I sent to Dales.


Dales Pty Ltd (CMS Pty Ltd)
Level 23, 127 Creek Street
Brisbane Qld 4000

1st October 2007
Re; my E-Mail to you dated, 17 September 2007

Dear Sir/Madam,

In relation to my request to you for a return for re-fund of the computer programme called “Tomorrows Top Stocks”. My problem is that the product is not as described by your representative Danny Wells, whom I will refer to as Danny. I believe that Danny has misrepresented the product as it does not perform as he described it would. The computer programme was purchased based on misleading information from Danny. I give you the following points in support of my claim.

1. Danny told me it takes 5 clicks of the mouse button and I was ready to trade. This is not the case, your support staff, says I have to then do all the research through the chart section of the programme and via the ASX website to see if the recommended stock is worth trading. That is why I bought the programme. I was told the programme would do all the analysis for me based on 250 different criteria. I also note the on the last page of the user manual under the heading “Note” saying the advice given by your program should not be relied on solely, further differing from the sales information offered up by Danny.

2. Danny also told me that all the support staff were experienced traders using this programme. This was not the impression I got when I spoke with them. I was first told by your support staff member (George) that he had turned a profit of $2,000.00 from an initial outlay of $100,000.00. This being a 2% gain and being in one year. On the next occasion that I asked George about his trading results, I was then told by George he had gained $2,000.00 from $10,000.00. being a 20% gain, also in one year. On the last occasion that I asked George, he told me he had not traded at all, that he was only paper trading. The trading results offered up by Danny at the time of purchase were between 40% and 80% gain per month.

3. Your advertised address is in Brisbane, when I was first considering the purchase of your programme, Danny told me you had moved from the Gold Coast to Brisbane because of the problem with all the “scam companies” associated with the Gold Coast and that when I was next in Brisbane I should call in for a cup of coffee and see the other programme working (the other program being a live trading program). Now I don’t believe Dales Pty Ltd are at the advertised Brisbane address. When a friend Stuart was in Brisbane, he went to the advertised address on the 26th July 2007 to meet and greet Danny. On Stuarts arrival at that address the office was only attended by a woman from the building management. This woman further informed Stuart that all staff from Dales Corp were out of the office for the day, even the receptionist, and they were only in contact with the Dales receptionist by way of a mobile phone. Stuart rang me from the coffee shop located downstairs to confirm the address and that he was at the correct location. I told him he was at the correct location. I than rang your number 1300 733 193, and asked the girl answering the phone where you were. She told me the advertised address (Level 23, 127 Creek Street Brisbane). I said that I know that address, but at what address is the seat your bum is sitting on? The girl replied, “I don’t understand what you are asking for”. I told her that if she is at the Brisbane address of Level 23, 127 Creek Street, Brisbane Qld, 4000, could you please go to the reception desk, as Stuart is there trying to get in to do a meet and greet with you all. The girl went away for a while and came back saying, “I really don’t know what you are talking about because I am talking to you from the Brisbane address.” I said “You are not there and don’t worry about it we are not getting anywhere.” and said” Good bye” and hung up. On Mon 10th Sept 2007, I also went to your office at the Brisbane address and had the same result as Stuart. I now believe your office is in Surface Paradise contrary to what I was told by Danny. Further verification that your Company is in Surfers Paradise can be seen on the response to my registered letter I sent to you that had been re-directed to and signed for dated 15th August 2007 at the Surfers Paradise branch of Australia Post. The correspondence form you to the National Australia Bank also shows a Post Office Box in Surfers Paradise. I believe the address at Creek Street Brisbane is no more than an address were mail is sent to, then re-directed to your Surface Paradise address, further adding to the misleading information I received from Danny.

4. I was told by Danny, that a dedicated service officer would be allocated to look after me. While I have mainly spoken to George, I have spoken to another service officer and have been told by George that I could be looked after by any one of the eight or so service officers.

5. My Visa statement has shown that a company called CMS Pty Ltd has been used to debit the funds to pay for the program. I also note your correspondence to the National Australia Bank came on CMS stationery. I have since done a search on the ASIC web site and found that CMS Pty Ltd was deregistered on 13th April 1992. This has raised further concern’s with me, as the company has been allowed to debit my account 15 years after its deregistration.

I don’t believe that the programme is as it was described to me by your sales person Danny Wells. I believe at law I am within my rights in seeking a refund on the programme based on these facts. I believe Danny Wells was misleading and misrepresented the product and as such I would once again like you to re-consider my request for a return for re-fund of the program “TommorowsTopStocks".


I look forward to your reply.

Regards

I am relieved to state that I have received my refund from Dales. It took a lot of effort but in the end Dales could not hide from the courts.

If others are attempting to get their monies refunded from Dales I suggest the following:-

1. Register their complaint with their appropriate state's civil and administrative tribunal - in Victoria it is VCAT, in NSW it is CTTT

2. In their application make reference to Dales failures to comply with the Fair Trading Act - in particular the Telemarketing provisions of the various states acts - they are pretty similar from state to state. Also make reference to Dales aggressive and decieptful sales tactics. Their relentless telephone calls wearing down potential customers with their outrageous claims of success and ease of making money using their system.
3. At the tribunal present a concise timeline of events (phone calls, correspondence, etc)
4. Dales have failed to provide - written contracts with provisions for cooling off, cancellations and refunds - these are called for in the telemarketing provisions of the fair trading act.

I can only encourage more disgruntled and ripped off individuals to take this action - the more who do the closer we are to shutting these professional rip off artists down for good. Thats all Dales are - they may present in their written correspondence as a professional operation - DONT BELIEVE A WORD OF WHAT THEY SAY IN THIER DEFENCE OF NOT REFUNDING - they will try all the tricks under the sun to avoid paying - IGNORE THEIR STATEMENTS - THEY WILL TRY TO USE REFERENCE TO TOTALLY IRRELEVENT AND OUT OF DATE LEGISLATION AND CASES - JUST IGNORE IT ALL - IT IS SIMPLY PART OF THEIR TACTICS TO WEAR PEOPLE DOWN INTO SUBMISSION AND THINKING IT IS ALL TOO HARD TO WIN AGAINST DALES. DON'T GIVE UP - JUST GET YOUR APPLICATIONS INTO YOUR APPROPRIATE STATE'S CIVIL TRIBUNAL.

If anyone needs help to get a refund - don't hesitate to contact me through this venue - I am keen to see justice and have DALES PUT OUT OF EXISTENCE - THEY ARE A PACK OF PROFESSIONAL RIP OFF ARTISTS WHO ARE FULL OF LIES AND DECEIPT.

NixTixx - well done to you! I have been following this thread on and off and really thought you wouldn't succeed, so well done and congratulations. Your efforts will be at least one nail in the coffin of this scam.

Now, don't let this experience put you off direct trading/investment, stick around on this board there are plenty of good people willing to share and help out.

Regardless of the product, never buy anything from anyone whose information you can't verify. Besides there are a lot of software providers out there that have decent testimonials, credentials and a track record.

For those of you out there that are thinking of applying for a re-fund, there is a limited time to do so. Dales have applied to Asics for De-Registration. I applied to Asics to refuse on the ground's I had legal action against Dales pending. I was granted a 90 day extension on there application.
I have now had my hearing at the CTTT in NSW and been granted a refund. Dales have till the 10th March to comply.
I believe the extension to prevent Dales de-registration has been extended to June ish but not shore.
Anyway I will advise you all of the outcome of Dales refunding the money, or, if I have to go further.

Regards

Con10n

Finally a bank cheque for the full amount arrived today. It hasbeen a long haul but well worth it. hang i9n there anybody else can give you info if wanted


Bye off to bank my cheque!!!

Thanks to all who gave their advice as we would have given up

I have also recieved a refund from Dales after a few 'friendly' calls to them by a friend of mine. I got the cheque the next day!
Good luck to anyone else waiting for a refund. Don't give up, put the pressure on them and they will break!!

Vivienne

Hi to all
i'm new and worried!!!
I think i may have found a link with all this to a recent company called
Walker Thompson Pty Ltd.
I stress i,m not accusing anyone about anything.
They have the same postal address as www.dalescorp.com.au
I was pressured into a purchase.

popeyeroo said:

Hi to all
i'm new and worried!!!
I think i may have found a link with all this to a recent company called
Walker Thompson Pty Ltd.
I stress i,m not accusing anyone about anything.
They have the same postal address as www.dalescorp.com.au
I was pressured into a purchase.

Click to expand...

new and worried??
you'll need to give us more info than that popey,
or we'll all think u're trying to guide the newbies to dales

Sorry,
I,m new in that i'm looking at trading stocks in the future and have no exp except to sell my telsta shares and watch things though etrade and the internet.
I,m worried because this software i have purchased sounds like whats in this thread.
i was put under pressure to purchase before the last 'allocations for W.A' ran out.
The salesman said i would make 15k profit from 2k in 12 months which then they would ask for the balance.
i also had to sign a deed that all and any information secured by myself as a result of being a program holder will be kept confidential so this info i,ve written here was from before i signed and loaded the software.

popeyeroo said:

Sorry,
I,m new in that i'm looking at trading stocks in the future and have no exp except to sell my telsta shares and watch things though etrade and the internet.
I,m worried because this software i have purchased sounds like whats in this thread.
i was put under pressure to purchase before the last 'allocations for W.A' ran out.
The salesman said i would make 15k profit from 2k in 12 months which then they would ask for the balance.
i also had to sign a deed that all and any information secured by myself as a result of being a program holder will be kept confidential so this info i,ve written here was from before i signed and loaded the software.

Click to expand...

popey

U have been taken for a ride.

If u still owe these people money I would suggest contacting ASIC and/or a lawyer: chances are any contract u signed is null and void.

If you've already paid the money, I would suggest contacting ASIC and/or a lawyer prior to attempting to extract your money from the sellers. This way u will be armed with the legals prior to extraction attempts.

Good luck, I hope all of your money is returned swiftly.

Very interestng to read this thread----sounds just like my experience except with a company called DataShare (also out of QLD)-----exactly the same price and promises !!!!! Thought it was just my bad luck, but am motivated to 'fight'.

One thing though---I'm such a stubborn cow, that I have now done a heap of reading and research and am determined to actually 'earn' my money back !!!!

Thanks James,
i did notice my money went to CMS pty ltd. no longer rego'd and looking back through this thread they have done a lot of things wrong and the same way.
cheers for your thoughts

see brian wh response

popeyeroo said:

Thanks James,
i did notice my money went to CMS pty ltd. no longer rego'd and looking back through this thread they have done a lot of things wrong and the same way.
cheers for your thoughts

Click to expand...

Hi James,
My money went to CMS too,
just wondering if you were ever able to get it back?
Cheers
Loving mum