Go Markets

chops_a_must · 12 December 2008

Just going through my e-mails, I came across this go-markets thing in the usual stuff from ASF.

I'm just wondering something about this:

"Our SPI contract attracts a margin of only AU$2,833 rather than the $11k at the exchange and our E-mini S&P 500 requires a margin of just US$1,000. GO Markets' MetaTrader4 platform also enables clients to trade micro lots on futures meaning you can trade with a smaller exposure and with less risk.

For example: Trade 0.1 lot of APZ8 (SPI) for a margin of $283.30 and commission of just 20 cents!"

I don't understand the micro lots thingy. How does this operate? How are they able to do it? Or is it just a MM CFD type thing? I don't understand.

Cheers.

professor_frink · 12 December 2008

chops_a_must said:
Just going through my e-mails, I came across this go-markets thing in the usual stuff from ASF.

I'm just wondering something about this:

"Our SPI contract attracts a margin of only AU$2,833 rather than the $11k at the exchange and our E-mini S&P 500 requires a margin of just US$1,000. GO Markets' MetaTrader4 platform also enables clients to trade micro lots on futures meaning you can trade with a smaller exposure and with less risk.

For example: Trade 0.1 lot of APZ8 (SPI) for a margin of $283.30 and commission of just 20 cents!"

I don't understand the micro lots thingy. How does this operate? How are they able to do it? Or is it just a MM CFD type thing? I don't understand.

Cheers.

yeah it's a MM thing. I sent them an email asking about it, below is the reply from the sales rep -

Our Futures are OTC, so we provide you with the real market live but
your orders are hedged separately by us. This allows us to offer micros.

We do not provide Market Depth on Futures with MT4.

Trembling Hand · 12 December 2008

I have actually opened an account but no yet bothered to fund it. As you all know I like to tickle the MM from time to time but what has worried me is that they give the impression that the orders are not auto but manual from their end??

Would some one who trades with them give an indication of execution times?? Please

Their ads are a bit deceptive though. You would think that the ASX/SFE SPI fut is copyrighted and they could not actually claim that you are trading the SPI.

superkrusty · 12 December 2008

Hi TH,

I have been trading the SPI the last couple of days with Gomarkets and have found order times to be really fast but this is my first live account (newbie).

Have not had one re-quote and have placed > 50 trades a day.

Have lost all my money however that seems to be my own fault and not gomarkets...

After so much advice here I still fell into the traps, I can now see why you say that you need a minimum of 20 - 30 k to get started. Back to the drawing board for me.

After reading about trading the SPI from you guys for the last year this was the only way I could start to try and get a feel for the price movement at least until I open an account with IB down the track.

The only bit of good news for me was to read your post saying how strange the SPI has been the last couple of days. At least if the gurus are having trouble some days doesn't make me feel so bad , I put it down to learning experience and move on..

Disclaimer - this is my first attempt at trading and my first broker (live)

Trembling Hand · 12 December 2008

superkrusty said:
Have lost all my money however

Oh well back to the drawing board hey

Naked shorts · 12 December 2008

Trembling Hand said:
I have actually opened an account but no yet bothered to fund it. As you all know I like to tickle the MM from time to time but what has worried me is that they give the impression that the orders are not auto but manual from their end??

Would some one who trades with them give an indication of execution times?? Please

Their ads are a bit deceptive though. You would think that the ASX/SFE SPI fut is copyrighted and they could not actually claim that you are trading the SPI.

I trade currencies with them TH, and the execution times are better then online providers i have used. I did have one trade that took noticeably longer then usual, it took 3seconds rather then the usual 1sec.

The volume provided on the MT4 platform is deceptive, I gave them a call the other day and they said the volume indicated is actually the amount of different bids that have been placed

superkrusty · 12 December 2008

TH , when scalping the SPI using a MM are you still looking at the DOM on IB platform or are you trading entirely by price movement.

Does the 2 point spread make it more of a nuisance or almost impossible ?

Sorry for all the questions but I need to learn and preserve my capital for next time.

Trembling Hand · 12 December 2008

superkrusty said:
TH , when scalping the SPI using a MM are you still looking at the DOM on IB platform or are you trading entirely by price movement.

Both.

superkrusty said:
Does the 2 point spread make it more of a nuisance or almost impossible ?

Almost impossible unless you restrict yourself to the first 30 min and last 30 min where the spreads are large and the range of movement greatest.

superkrusty said:
Sorry for all the questions but I need to learn and preserve my capital for next time.

There is no way in the world you should be scalping when starting your first live account. Madness!!

A small account doing >50 trades a day with a MM is going to put you down about 150 ticks just to start!! How the hell is a newbie going to cover that with low skill

superkrusty · 12 December 2008

Trembling Hand said:
Both.

A small account doing >50 trades a day with a MM is going to put you down about 150 ticks just to start!! How the hell is a newbie going to cover that with low skill

hmmm, well the newbie isn't going to cover that and has learnt his lesson the hard way. It just seemed like every trade i took was wrong , even the laws of probability seemed to work against me.

It is just that everyone says you have to watch the market and find the patterns which is what I was trying to do. Even with small trades (.2 of a contract) it eats into a small capital really quickly.

Seems I have learnt a lot more in 3 days of MY money than 1 year of trading demo accounts

Trembling Hand · 12 December 2008

superkrusty said:
It just seemed like every trade i took was wrong , even the laws of probability seemed to work against me.

A lot in that.

superkrusty · 12 December 2008

TH , give me some advice and I will follow it to the letter. I am keen to succeed in trading and willing to put in the time and effort. Please.

I am not asking for your trading plan or wanting to get hand fed everything just give me Step 1 so I can follow the road to success and not years of the wrong path.

My thoughts for step 1 is to keep trading micro amounts on the SPI with Gomarkets and practice trading as per your post to lindsay

https://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showpost.php?p=369744&postcount=9

Thanks for your advice so far and your input on this forum, I know I appreciate it and I am sure others do too.

Trembling Hand · 12 December 2008

For starters you have to have an idea of what works and what the hell the market is likely to do on any given day. Have a look at Frank D thread and blog.

Then you can go about finding patterns that suit/match your expectation of the day and hopefully trading it with some idea about what the hell you are doing.

I doubt doing >50 trades a day as a starting point you have any idea what is going on but rather just reacting to mini moves and flicks and in the process getting cut to bits.

If you spent 6 months on a sim and made $$ doing 50 trades a day I would say that you are still up against it with a small account but keep going. If you continue to trade small accounts with money you can't afford to lose and are trying to learn at the same time you will end up shell shocked and never recover. IMO

superkrusty · 12 December 2008

Trembling Hand said:
I doubt doing >50 trades a day as a starting point you have any idea what is going on but rather just reacting to mini moves and flicks and in the process getting cut to bits.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. Constant chasing my tail and losing on every trade. I didnt find this with SIM trading as I guess less emotion to get back what i just lost.

I am shell shocked and felt a bit sick at how quick it can go with bad decisions. It was not a lot of money and was money i was prepared to lose but it has completely stuffed my expectations.... I read about this happening many times over the year and cant believe i am in the same position now.

I race pushy's and know how much of a psychological game that is , seems to be a few parallels. Will just have to push through for another turn at the front , and more training (miles = trading time i guess)!!

Trembling Hand · 12 December 2008

superkrusty said:
I race pushy's and know how much of a psychological game that is , seems to be a few parallels. Will just have to push through for another turn at the front , and more training (miles = trading time i guess)!!

Or sit on the back and wait for the right time to attack. No point trying to ride away from a bunch of scratch riders when you are a limit rider :

professor_frink · 12 December 2008

superkrusty said:
Hi TH,

I have been trading the SPI the last couple of days with Gomarkets and have found order times to be really fast but this is my first live account (newbie).

Have not had one re-quote and have placed > 50 trades a day.

Have lost all my money however that seems to be my own fault and not gomarkets...

After so much advice here I still fell into the traps, I can now see why you say that you need a minimum of 20 - 30 k to get started. Back to the drawing board for me.

After reading about trading the SPI from you guys for the last year this was the only way I could start to try and get a feel for the price movement at least until I open an account with IB down the track.

The only bit of good news for me was to read your post saying how strange the SPI has been the last couple of days. At least if the gurus are having trouble some days doesn't make me feel so bad , I put it down to learning experience and move on..

Disclaimer - this is my first attempt at trading and my first broker (live)

What's wrong with doing some swing/position trading to build up enough capital, and then spending your spare time observing the market to try and learn a little about daytrading?

seems rather pointless if you don't have the funds or knowledge to do it properly

chops_a_must · 12 December 2008

Trembling Hand said:
Their ads are a bit deceptive though. You would think that the ASX/SFE SPI fut is copyrighted and they could not actually claim that you are trading the SPI.

That's exactly why I asked!!

It seems extremely, extremely misleading. Horrible really.

How on earth can they claim you are trading the futures, and give you the contract code, when all you are trading is the MM???

Incredible.

superkrusty · 12 December 2008

professor_frink said:
What's wrong with doing some swing/position trading to build up enough capital, and then spending your spare time observing the market to try and learn a little about daytrading?

seems rather pointless if you don't have the funds or knowledge to do it properly

Well Prof, that was the initial plan. I have been watching the EUR/USD mostly but after reading so much about the SPI here thats where I thought the best success might come.

I think your advice is spot on. I will try some swing trading/position trading on the EUR/USD and study the market more instead of having a nervous breakdown every 2 seconds as price change.

I was thinking of placing small trade with reasonably tight stop on e the E/U at about 4-30 pm and then checking again next morning. If it moves only down or only up I stand to be in profit , if it hits my stop then I have only lost very small amount.

What do you think ? low risk isn't it ?

I had a post of yours bookmarked that had a few simple rules but can't find it now. Will search through old posts.

prawn_86 · 12 December 2008

superkrusty said:
I was thinking of placing small trade with reasonably tight stop on e the E/U at about 4-30 pm and then checking again next morning. If it moves only down or only up I stand to be in profit , if it hits my stop then I have only lost very small amount.

Sounds like gambling to me.

Why not go the the casino and choose red or black

professor_frink · 12 December 2008

superkrusty said:
Well Prof, that was the initial plan. I have been watching the EUR/USD mostly but after reading so much about the SPI here thats where I thought the best success might come.

I think your advice is spot on. I will try some swing trading/position trading on the EUR/USD and study the market more instead of having a nervous breakdown every 2 seconds as price change.

I was thinking of placing small trade with reasonably tight stop on e the E/U at about 4-30 pm and then checking again next morning. If it moves only down or only up I stand to be in profit , if it hits my stop then I have only lost very small amount.

What do you think ? low risk isn't it ?

I had a post of yours bookmarked that had a few simple rules but can't find it now. Will search through old posts.

Oh dear, bookmarking my posts! I think we've found the problem folks

On a slightly more serious note, the idea you've described above sounds pretty dodgy(maybe it's because you haven't explained it fully). Why short? And why at 4:30pm? And why the Euro?

superkrusty · 12 December 2008

professor_frink said:
Oh dear, bookmarking my posts! I think we've found the problem folks

On a slightly more serious note, the idea you've described above sounds pretty dodgy(maybe it's because you haven't explained it fully). Why short? And why at 4:30pm? And why the Euro?

Sorry for not being clear , I mean study the days movement and with that information try and predict the overnight movement and go long or short based on that. If there is a big swing down or up and does not retrace and take out my sop then I could stand to make quite a big profit. If it does take out my stop then I have only lost a very small amount due to my tight stop.

Not sure how to backtest this strategy but should help me understand the market and it's movements a little better , would you agree ?

Any other advice will be well received

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