This is a misinterpretation of what I said. I wasn't referring to any 'facts' about fluoride. I don't doubt that it has been shown to reduce dental decay. My objection is on the basis of any government adding anything to the water supply which is not required for simply keeping that water clean, e.g. chlorine.
Yes, the methodology!
It's interesting that most US reports (esp. by dentists) use the 'Dean' standard of measure for carries created back in the mid 1900's. Dean didn't count fluorosis victims unless they had 2 or more teeth affected by fluorosis.
As I pointed out previously, the US has officially recognised reports, although not mainstream yet, because of the corrupted influence of the US ADA, that black Americans are twice as susceptable to fluorosis, at least. We know race/genes have a huge effect on other mineral uptake and disease rates, BUT...
The latest evidence is clearly saying that fluoridation is distrubiting Fluoride unevenly right through the food chain with an increasing multiplier effect especially on the young and more cumulative effect on the ageing. The US is recommending to lower fluoridation rates to the lower of the range, .7mg/l.
The people who were born as fluoridation was at it's peak in the US are ageing and starting to cost the health system a lot of money from a range of poor quality and toxic food inputs, including fluoridation.
Oh dear, I didn't want to get into any arguments on this thread and have simply apologised for my unnecessary picking up of a capital letter to denote superiority.I respect your above argument because I understand and appreciate the ethical argument of fluoride. You don't deliberately go on a spree and post false information (and claiming it to be fact) to sway people. You had a misunderstanding about the aetiology of fluorosis, but once someone told you the science behind it you accepted it instead of arguing for the sake of arguing.
And if my simple statement that I accept that fluoride will reduce dental caries is being interpreted as my 'acceptance of the science' (horrible association of climate change here!) then I will withdraw it. I have simply said that I accept that by hardening the teeth, caries will likely be reduced, but this acceptance should not be interpreted as my agreement that any side effects, proven or suggested, are so insignificant as to therefore justify putting fluoride in the water system.
But at no stage have I conceded that I had any misunderstanding about fluorosis or anything else, and I would suggest that the diagnosis of a dentist who actually saw the condition and made the diagnosis will be preferable to an opinion from an anonymous person in an internet forum who was never able to have seen the condition of the then teeth.
OK, I appreciate your moderate and reasonable attitude. I later realised that at the time I was consuming a very large quantity of the wonderful citrus fruit (grapefruit and tangelos) that were available there, and biting into segments, sucking out the juice from between the front teeth. Perhaps the unusual amount of acidity could have etched into the tooth enamel?You're free to believe what you believe and I don't blame you for trusting your dentist's diagnosis over an anonymous internet poster like me. I can't tell you what condition you have because I haven't seen your mouth. What I can tell you is that fluorosis develops while the teeth are developing (i.e when you are a child) so it's not possible to 'acquire it' late in life by simply visiting a fluoridated town for one month.
Just letting you know, Julia...you're free to dismiss what I say if you wish (but you'd be dismissing a whole profession and body of evidence as well).
Fluorosis is a bilateral disease.
ie at least 2 teeth would be affected usually. Clearly any study looking into fluorosis would therefore look for at least 2 affected teeth.
What research mate? Show it to us.Originally Posted by Whiskers
As I pointed out previously, the US has officially recognised reports, although not mainstream yet, because of the corrupted influence of the US ADA, that black Americans are twice as susceptable to fluorosis, at least. We know race/genes have a huge effect on other mineral uptake and disease rates, BUT...
What evidence says this mate? Show it to us.
What research said this? Show it to us.
Perhaps the unusual amount of acidity could have etched into the tooth enamel?
It really doesn't matter, some people call it a disease (including WHO).Why do you use the word "disease" when it is a 'condition' caused by fluoride
Not relevant Whiskers. That’s a question for the fluorosis researchers. I don’t claim to be an expert at fluorosis indices, because its irrelevant to clinical practice. No one here understands it (or cares about it) either so it would be a waste of my time to talk about it.:
So why do you think the Dean index is better and more reliable than the TSIF index which is accepted as a better index?
This is not a dentistry exam my friend, me answering that question wont help this debate. I will change your question to a more direct question which people here will find more useful:Billy, how would you rate the degree of this fluorosis?
It really doesn't matter, some people call it a disease (including WHO).
Not relevant Whiskers. That’s a question for the fluorosis researchers. I don’t claim to be an expert at fluorosis indices, because its irrelevant to clinical practice.
No one here understands it (or cares about it) either so it would be a waste of my time to talk about it.
This is not a dentistry exam my friend, me answering that question wont help this debate. I will change your question to a more direct question which people here will find more useful:
Was that condition in the photo caused by water fluoridation like in QLD?
Please provide a better definition if you disagree with mine.
But you are loudly applauding some research over others! Don't you want to know that the foundation for their analysis is accurate and reliable?
your assertion that certain science is true and others that you disagree with are nothing but conspiracy theories.
As you know, Qld is still rolling out fluoridation, started a couple of years ago and another year to go to complete. But what people are looking to is the historical research from overseas that shows what can and will happen here in time, at the .8 mg/l to 1.5 mg/l legislated fluoridation rate here in Qld.
You do not understand the legislation and guidelines.
I will correct you again because I am nice.
I refer you to section 5.1.1 and 5.3.1 of the Fluoridation code of practice which clearly states:
“The fluoridation dosing facility operator should ensure the fluoridated water complies with the prescribed concentration ( ±0.1mg/L) at least 95% of the time”
“If fluoridated water leaving the fluoride dosing facility has a fluoride concentration greater than 0.3 mg/L above the prescribed fluoride concentration the fluoride dosing facility should be shut down immediately, the treatment plant supervisor should be notified and the cause of the elevated concentration should be investigated and rectified before recommencing dosing”
What does this mean in Layman's terms you ask? it means only 5% of the time can the concentration exceed 0.9mg/L (0.8 + 0.1). It also means the plant would be shut down immediately (and investigated)when it reaches 1.1mg/L (0.8 + 0.3).
Please stop arguing about the QLD legislation. You do not understand them well yet. Please read them again, and also read the Code of Practice.
By the way, how long have you been out of med school... or are you using an antique text book?
The bottom line is "should" has no force in law or from Qld Health.
Even though they are doctors, they do not go to med school
Wow, you really do have too much free time....
Actually, the bottom line is that the code of practice means that the water suppliers will follow the code to ensure concentrations are kept at 0.8-1.1mg/L. Unless of course they deliberately go out and disobey the code to harm us, which you may choose to believe if you wish to.
and this code is just a code of best practice. It's self explinatory within the document that it's not enforcable...
Hey, I wonder why the QLD government would go to all that trouble to make a Code of conduct for our water fluoridators to follow??! Why oh Why would they do that?
Oh, that's right, it must be for OUR benefit, i.e to protect the public!! Surprise! Shock! Horror!!!
My advice to you is to try to be less cynical, no one's trying to poison you my friend, the code is there for your benefit mate.
Also, I'm here to set facts straight, not break your ego! Don't take things too personally, it's just a little debate.
1) Can you please show/prove/give me evidence that fluoride was carried out under a testing phase to show that it was actually beneficial for development of infants in strengthening their teeth to delay the onset of tooth decay/missing teeth? (A simple Fluoride vs Non Fluoride time frame graph/chart will suffice)
2) Exactly what type of "Fluoride" was used for these tests or during the introduction; and what type of Fluoride is being put into the water today?
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