The world will be more liveable when people are not so judgemental and attach themselve to any particular group/country.
I completely agree, but as you said it's human nature. We tend to define ourselves by groups, and nationality is just one of those. It's funny you mention Australians living abroad, as I'd go overseas to experience another country's culture and lifestyle. If I wanted to live like an aussie, I could just do that here
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disarray said:
its also a way for people to forge a common identity based around cultural, religious and social similarities in an increasingly globalised and heterogenous world.
We're all human, perhaps we can start there. Also consider that grouping people places less emphasis on the individual. This is why many think of someone as American or Australian, rather than as a person that just happened to be born there. Grouping encourages generalisations and stereotypes, which for example the Americans suffer greatly from. I think we'd be much better off if we thought of each other simply as human, but individuals.
it is ignorant and bigoted to just dismiss nationalist sentiment in such an offhand way, and displays an amazing (but not unexpected) lack of intellectual consideration and depth of thought.
I assume you just called me an idiot. There have been many intelligent people in history that have commented on the negatives of grouping, whether it be nationalism, religious, socio-economic status etc. I only dismiss it because I believe it brings greater harm than good. There's nothing wrong with feeling proud, but it so often breeds ignorance which leads to many problems in the world.
because nationality is related to culture, which is tied in with attitudes and laws and systems. an australian national has a different outlook to the world and others than people from other nations and cultures. look at the position of women in our society and compare to say bangladesh or afghanistan or even a first world country like japan.
So the nationalism that you claim makes us special, also preserves what we consider poorer standards in many other cultures? It shouldn't make us proud to be Australian, it should just make us sympathetic to women who are oppressed.
whether you like it or a not (and you probably don't so just keep on ignoring this simple fact) a person from a different nation has a different world view to you so when you judge them you aren't just looking at their skin and going "oh wow a <insert race>" you're looking at the whole depth of culture and history and social structure and religious background and the many and varied facets of the human animal that lies inside that person. unless you are an idiot (which many many people are).
I'm not ignoring it, there are many different views from my own nation, so I wouldn't expect any less than from other nations. The fact is that many people do make judgements based only on religion, culture, race, wealth etc. As you said, there are many, many ignorant people in the world. Grouping just encourages it.
our lifestyle IS special. your girlfriend can get around in a miniskirt without being flogged or raped. we can worship whatever fictional deity we like, take male or female (or both) to our bed. we can protest, criticise, complain, get pissed, fall over then claim free health care.
We're just one of the better houses on a bad street. Yes, we're better than most, but we still have some way to go. I don't feel proud because I don't think we've yet reached a level to be proud of.
people like you are so busy agonising over our shortcomings asking stupid questions like "how can we make people like us more?" when you should be analysing the real questions with real answers that can actually make a difference when applied to the wider stage. why is our society this way? what aspects of our cultural evolution and society are the source of such freedom, unheard of in the entire history of humanity? what are the racial, social and cultural lynchpins that make western society the beacon of freedom, progress and hope in a largely barbaric world? what is the cue in X culture that causes behaviour Y? does Y need to be modified (say honour killings or female mutilation or childhood slavery) and if so, how can we understand and then work within framework X to change the outcome?
So you have now grouped me, without knowing me at all. Busy agnonising? Hardly. I make the point that we're all human and should consider each other as individuals, and suddenly I'm accused of whinging about how bad it is in Australia. That's fine, I did say that someone would do just this.
Analysing the real questions? So now we should ask ourselves why we're special and how we can change the world to be like us? I find that kind of view distasteful, and part of the problem, not the solution. I hope I've just misunderstood you there. We have to let people choose for themselves, not impose our beliefs and standards on them. Our way is not necessarily better, we have to let them decide for themselves. This doesn't mean we can't help them.
compared to who? outside japan and korea the developed world possesses pretty much the same cultural and religious background, so why would they be different?
That's my point - our lifestyle is not that unique or special, at least to the extent of it making Australia better than everywhere else, as many seem to think.
no i understand where you're coming from, you just don't realise what the world is really like. you sit there all educated and protected snug under the blanket of freedom our grandparents had to commit mass murder for, casting judgement on attitudes you consider "barbaric" when you really don't have a clue about the true nature of humanity or the state of the world.
I don't see how you can come to that conclusion. I just stated the grouping people, whether it be by nationality, culture, race, religion, wealth etc just leads to greater ignorance. Identifying people as groups leads to less importance of the individual, and if the world is to become a better place (as most would perceive to be "better"), then we need to stop thinking in terms of groups. I'm not ignorant of human nature, and I know that for many, perhaps most, that it just isn't possible. Humans as a whole are weak, greedy, ignorant etc, but much of this is due to our attitudes and culture, rather than our true nature.
or maybe they are more aware as to the nature of things, and realise man is a base animal who will act in his own best interests and is hard wired to common recognition socialisation, and all the "we are the world" group hug fairy dust ideals are nothing but a temporary luxury bought with blood and, eventually, will have to be paid for the same way when challenged.
You're jumping to conclusions, and you couldn't be more wrong about me here. I never made any comments about idealistic social structures, just that thinking in terms of groups is not beneficial. I never said we could get past that, because we may very well never do so.
people belong in groups. it is this way because we are all different. it's true, look it up.
They only belong in groups because that is what people think. We're all different? Then don't place people in groups. Grouping people robs them of their identity, it doesn't preserve it.