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Alot of the mini futs can have average spreads....... E mini an exception to that!
 
"Evolution of a Trader"

Author - Unknown

1. We accumulate information - buying books, going to seminars and
researching.

2. We begin to trade with our 'new' knowledge.

3. We consistently 'donate' and then realize we may need more
knowledge or information.

4. We accumulate more information.

5. We switch the markets we are currently following.

6. We go back into the market and trade with our 'updated'
knowledge.

7. We get 'beat up' again and begin to lose some of our confidence.
Fear starts setting in.

8. We start to listen to 'outside news' and to other traders.

9. We go back into the market and continue to 'donate'.

10. We switch markets again.

11. We search for more information.

12. We go back into the market and start to see a little progress.

13. We get 'over-confident' and the market humbles us.

14. We start to understand that trading successfully is going to
take more time and more knowledge than we anticipated.

MOST PEOPLE WILL GIVE UP AT THIS POINT, AS THEY REALISE WORK IS
INVOLVED.

15. We get serious and start concentrating on learning a 'real'
methodology.

16. We trade our methodology with some success, but realize that
something is missing.

17. We begin to understand the need for having rules to apply our
methodology.

18. We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our
trading rules.

19. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some
success, but over all we still hesitate when it comes time to
execute.

20. We add, subtract and modify rules as we see a need to be more
proficient with our rules.

21. We feel we are very close to crossing that threshold of
successful trading.

22. We start to take responsibility for our trading results as we
understand that our success is in us, not the methodology.

23. We continue to trade and become more proficient with our
methodology and our rules.

24. As we trade we still have a tendency to violate our rules and
our results are still erratic.

25. We know we are close.

26. We go back and research our rules.

27. We build the confidence in our rules and go back into the
market and trade.

28. Our trading results are getting better, but we are still
hesitating in executing our rules.

29. We now see the importance of following our rules as we see the
results of our trades when we don't follow the rules.

30. We begin to see that our lack of success is within us (a lack
of discipline in following the rules because of some kind of fear)
and we begin to work on knowing ourselves better.

31. We continue to trade and the market teaches us more and more
about ourselves.

32. We master our methodology and our trading rules.

33. We begin to consistently make money.

34. We get a little over-confident and the market humbles us.

35. We continue to learn our lessons.

36. We stop thinking and allow our rules to trade for us (trading
becomes boring, but successful) and our trading account continues
to grow as we increase our contract size.

37. We are making more money than we ever dreamed possible.

38. We go on with our lives and accomplish many of the goals we had
always dreamed of.
 
Dont mean to hijack, but was wondering Trembling if you could elaborate on your change of style/what brought it about etc. Enquiring minds must know!
 
The Points above describe my trading journey with alarming accuracy but after that I deviate from your evolution as follows:

18. We take a sabbatical from trading to develop and research our
trading rules.
Click to expand...
I took the sabbatical to learn Mechanical Automated Trading through Ninja Trader
19. We start trading again, this time with rules and find some
success, but over all we still hesitate when it comes time to
execute.
Click to expand...
This doesn't apply to me as the computer never hesitates to take a trade.
IMO mechanical trading removes all the problems stated in steps 20 to 35.
All I have to do his concentrate on making better systems and let the computer execute them, no more pschco babble.Using Technical Anaylsis as a means to look for repeatable patterns.
BTW I'm only up to step 35 ATM but can see step37 in sight.
 

so what happens when you wake up and find your system over night has given you 20% draw down?? the emotions and self confidence would be shaken I would say!

I hear that a lot from bot traders but I fail to see how you can get off any better. I could imagine after a few bad days you have to ask yourself what do I do now tweak it or let it run my account possibility into the ground! once you go to the tweaking you're still in those steps.
 

Yeah I agree.

Both discretionary and automatic trading still need to adapt to changing market conditions, its just whether you manage to adapt before you go bust I'd say. So your system works good now, doesn't mean it always will imo. Everything needs constant review & analyzing so you can identify when that change is happening.
 

i agree with this... the real acid test of any new idea that you run in the market is.... TIME (really applicable to short term chartists)
 
Twiddle said:
That is interesting.

I am guessing this ties in accurately with your personal experience baby_swallow?
Click to expand...

Yep, very accurate indeed. Who ever wrote this must be a genius in trader's psychology.
It was a very painful learning process for me. I blew my account twice and nearly ended my marriage. But it didn't deter my resolve, instead it made me more determined to succeed. There was a time that I thought of quitting, but then I thought quitting now would be a total surrender and I can't take that. I already invested so much on this and I learned a lot from my mistakes. I know I got what it takes and just a matter of time I'll be winning this game.
Blowing my account, although painful, was actually a blessing. It thought me discipline and patience - controlling the devil in me - FEAR and GREED.

Imo, losing money and learning from it, is a pre-requisite to succeed in this game.
----(more on these soon.......)
 

Joe,
I tried creating my signature but it doesn't insert automatically when I create a new post. Should I manually insert it?
B_S
 

And identifying with this determination, even defiance, the market will cut you down time and again. You don't beat the market, you move with it.
 
Wysiwyg said:
And identifying with this determination, even defiance, the market will cut you down time and again. You don't beat the market, you move with it.
Click to expand...

very true!

I have noticed every-time I have three weeks of non stop winning I get into the king of the market complex and I set myself up for a mental fall. This is a area that I am really working hard on to solve. As it's not the 3-5 trades I drop that hurts it's the confidence collapse that really stings!

emotions damn it, i don't need em!
 
so what happens when you wake up and find your system over night has given you 20% draw down?? the emotions and self confidence would be shaken I would say!
Click to expand...
Thats true if that was possible.However with all systems having Stops,allowing for slippage and using a mini fx account its not relevant to me.
This is true and this is where a little psychology does come into it however if you have designed a system that has say being backtested since 2007 with all the ups and downs and news events of the markets and say has not endured anymore than three stop outs in a row then you simply stop trading and revise the system once you have exceeded this.
Totally agree ..... once my stop outs exceed the designed level its time to revise those systems.I'm a believer in the Hypothesis that we are attempting to exploit ineffiencies in the market and eventually all systems cease to be effective however I have found so far that you can adjust some mechanical systems to keep them in tune with the market to lengthen their life.
 
spibok said:
Dont mean to hijack, but was wondering Trembling if you could elaborate on your change of style/what brought it about etc. Enquiring minds must know!
Click to expand...
Size, and all things change, see below comment

Then what? Go again? I think you are actually setting up for "a little psychology " trouble. It doesn't matter what method you play with sooner or later you will trip on one of the landmines.

There is no getting away from the fact that on every time scale from tick out to monthly that the changes are forever constant. Both directional AND volatility. Systems have the same problem as discretionary traders. One gets in sync spectacularly at times and the world is there for you to conquer like taking candy off a baby.

But inevitably ones falls out of sync whether its directionally, range vs trend or volatility or lack thereof. Sooner or latter it will get you. System trader or not backtested or not.
 
Then what? Go again? I think you are actually setting up for "a little psychology " trouble. It doesn't matter what method you play with sooner or later you will trip on one of the landmines.
Click to expand...
You either adjust the existing systems or bring on new ones + you run a number of systems together so that they complement each other.But I'm not dissagreeing with you I'm just saying that the Psychology aspect is greatly minimized IMO .

Agreed
But inevitably ones falls out of sync whether its directionally, range vs trend or volatility or lack thereof. Sooner or latter it will get you. System trader or not backtested or not.
Click to expand...
Again agreed however if you are confident in your systems and they are automated then it is much easier to stop them when they get out of sync because you are removed from the process of entering or exiting the trades .You are simply monitoring and checking that the systems are performing as they should .
 
waza1960 said:
You either adjust the existing systems or bring on new ones + you run a number of systems together so that they complement each other.But I'm not dissagreeing with you I'm just saying that the Psychology aspect is greatly minimized IMO .
Click to expand...

Wazza, no attack here but that's so hard if not impossible to do, change with the market as it changes how? you don't know what it's changing to!.

As a chartist I have found this so hard to deal with at times, a strong flow in the trends. then bang no more follow through. you get hit on a couple then you think what's up here? in that state your a little confused and it's a new market how do you know what system to apply to it, if it hasn't confirmed to you what type of market it is?

on the short term it happens all the time, i don't swap methods I just try to ride it out. But from what I have experienced it so bloody hard to be spot on when a market volatility, range and momentum changes.

IMO if you could pick this as it happens perfectly, then you would not need bots systems or anything you would be a phenomenal trader.
 
Wazza, no attack here but that's so hard if not impossible to do, change with the market as it changes how? you don't know what it's changing to!.
Click to expand...
Agree however my focus is not as narrow as you describe I'm not interested in changing as the market changes or what it is changing to in a short time frame . Because I have multiple systems on multiple Fx pairs I'm dealing with probabilities of probabililties and not reliant on the success and failure of one system . Because I have backtested over at least two years (especially the last 2 )I know that if my system suddenly has more stop outs then what occurred during backtesting then I will pull the system and discard it or modify it.


on the short term it happens all the time, i don't swap methods I just try to ride it out. But from what I have experienced it so bloody hard to be spot on when a market volatility, range and momentum changes.
Click to expand...
I know what your saying but with my systems I believe I haven't done my job unless I have backtested over a wide range of market conditions but again I'm not trying to to be spot on just be ahead on probabilities

IMO if you could pick this as it happens perfectly, then you would not need bots systems or anything you would be a phenomenal trader.
Click to expand...
True but back to reality
 
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