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Australian Job Losses

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With luck we'll get swamped with 20,000,000 refugees from Indonesia over the next 5 years. Hopefully they'll take over running the joint, cos' our pollies don't seem up to it....
 

While I appreciate the apparent hypocrisy, I think the depth of the IT sector, and the nature of the work means it's far less likely to see these skills vanish from our workforce, unlike large manufacturers. The only argument that I'm aware of to support failing industries is to maintain domestic skills, not jobs.
 
This depends on how you define the IT workforce. If you exclude the army of 457 IT workers and focus only on Aus citizens, the upward trend in ICT offshoring is having an alarming impact on domestic employment prospects and skill retention.

The skills are vanishing at a rate that is more perceptable now than in the past as some facets of ICT work (e.g. certain types of software development) are sourced almost exclusively overseas. Will IT skill sets totally vanish, no, but the sector will not be a major employer in Australia in the next 20 years if current offshoring trends continue.

ICT is a growing industry just not in Australia. Maintaining skills is useless if those skills can't secure one a job in Australia. The "depth" of the sector is a facade and relies heavily on large employers like the banks employing highly skilled and experienced IT workers. Increasingly, this work is going overseas at a rate that is disturbing to say the least.
 
FxTrader said:
The skills are vanishing at a rate that is more perceptable now than in the past as some facets of ICT work (e.g. certain types of software development) are sourced almost exclusively overseas.
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Interesting. In my own industry (industrial controls systems) they're increasingly looking to outsource brute coding to get the leg work done, but due to training, experience and client relationships it still comes back to our engineers to check, test and implement. I expect this trend to continue but feel that due to the differences in education and work ethic/culture I'm confident that jobs will remain for talented and experienced individuals in my profession. The problem will be the graduates getting the experience to get to the required level when all the small stuff is already outsourced for cheaper. The dead weight will definitely be culled though over the next decade.

Anecdotally, I've been led to believe that creative IT was still very much a growing industry in Aus. I've a number of mates working in development and their companies are doing well where design is a larger aspect of the work. Whether it be developing client relationships, or understanding local markets better, I think this work will remain due to domestic advantages.

I definitely think that code monkeys and IT support jobs are on the way out though, as they just can't compete on wages, and I don't think they have much to offer from a service perspective that can be considered an advantage.

Agree?
 
Zedd said:
I definitely think that code monkeys and IT support jobs are on the way out though, as they just can't compete on wages, and I don't think they have much to offer from a service perspective that can be considered an advantage. Agree?
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Yes, but keep in mind that such jobs comprise a large part of the more highly paid and skilled segment of the IT workforce. Such jobs are still required of course but offshored at a fraction of the cost locally. Quality of local service is overridden by the fact that in some roles you can employ 3 workers in India for the cost of 1 in Australia.

I have first hand experience with the indignity of training someone in India to do my job under threat of losing my redundancy package otherwise (IBM). Unfortunately this is an all to common experience these days.

You raise a key issue for the future, where are future IT grads going to get the experience to work with high end corporate infrastructure and development projects. IT is morphing into a niche market segment instead of a major industry sector here. It's quite sad to watch this unfolding.
 
And I also share your view, I am in IT and there are still jobs for me as supervising organising outsourced work.But the experience I gained ramping up would not be possible anymore and we will end up with dum corporate swallowing any rubbish an outsourcing company will feed them as they will have no more local experience to rely on:
10 man weeks jobs will be quoted 100 and they will sign off..
In a way, justice will be done
As for the quality of the end product...
 
qldfrog said:
10 man weeks jobs will be quoted 100 and they will sign off..
In a way, justice will be done
As for the quality of the end product...
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This is exactly what already happens in other industries where things have been "outsourced" not overseas, but to Australians.

You'd be hard pressed to find a technical person, in any specific field, who thinks that outsourcing actually improves the end result. It's just that big corporates and especially government think it's a good idea, because senior management doesn't really know what's going on "at the coal face".

A lot of this ultimately comes down to having managers who are generalists without practical experience in whatever it is they are supposedly managing. They don't want to know the detail themselves, they just want someone to tell them what needs to happen and that everything will be OK. And so there's an entire industry writing reports to make managers feel secure in what they are doing. Trouble is, the vast majority of such reports are at best based on unproven assumptions.

Pick a subject, practically any subject will do, that you personally have in depth knowledge of. Now find some management reports, or better still government reports, into that subject. You'll be shocked to realise that actual decisions are being made on the basis of such rubbish.

As a specific example, some government departments rely heavily on a "business case" to justify practically any decision. At the extreme, that could be something as simple as fixing a broken air-conditioner or leasing a vehicle. It all comes down to the almighty Business Case. Now, the trouble is really quite obvious. The person writing the Business Case will, in most situations, be the person who wants whatever it is in the first place. No prizes for guessing that they'll write a Business Case which supports their own argument. And since technical knowledge has been outsourced, nobody is likely to challenge them on it even if it is incredibly wasteful and unnecessary.

Outsourcing has a proper place, that being for things which are not a routine part of the company's core activities. But it's very much over used when it's come to the point that the company or government department no longer understands its' own activities as is increasingly the case.
 
Jobs will vanish, this country does not invest in its skills at all. Why pay someone 150k a year to do a simple task in Australia because of a shortage created due to incompetence when you can hire someone for a 5th of that overseas ?

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Smurf1976 said:
A lot of this ultimately comes down to having managers who are generalists without practical experience in whatever it is they are supposedly managing.
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I reckon it is the other way around. Technical folk piss in the pocket of management for only so long until management cracks the ****s and outsources.

The current example is someone told them it was a good idea not to train new staff, now they ended up with shortages and as a result the technical folk got paid a fortune and their jobs ended up being outsourced.

The government is the worst of the lot, soft left leaning female focused bull**** educational courses where billions are spent to no gain at all. I say fire all of the left leaning feminists and let some people who actually know what they're doing run the show.

As first point I'd say a cull at year ten to remove the bottom 50% of students from education, and a further 50% cull at the end of year 11 so only the top 25% of students get to compete for university places.

Next, the saved money, you give to employers so they can basically hire people without experience for zero dollars (their actual worth).

We need to drastically re-shape the Australian economy and this will include making a lot of people cry. The next point would be to crash the property market and build a lot of apartments so people can live a lot cheaper, enabling business to pay lower wages.
 
Mrmagoo said:
I reckon it is the other way around. Technical folk piss in the pocket of management for only so long until management cracks the ****s and outsources.
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Interesting POV, and I can sympathise to an extent. It's very rare to find a technical expert who can also appreciate the financial aspects of the questions being asked and are able to discuss options objectively with a manager. Still more a communications failure though which is management's role, based primarily on under-knowledged management IMO.

So you think it'd be better to have a less educated population, which would enable us to pay lower wages, and eventually be able to compete on wages with 3rd-world nations? Unlikely I think.

Productivity-advantages driven through education and training is the only way we're going to keep our current quality of life. Completely disagree with further limitations on university places, but I agree that high-school leavers need a better appreciation of where they can get to without a trade or degree. Didn't hit home for me until I was two years into my degree, working in a fish and chip shop to earn spending money, while accruing HECS debt, and debt with parents for living expenses. At the same time one of my mates was pulling in almost $100k working 7 days a week with a trade which he began in year 10. If not for the skills squeeze from the mining boom I'd be surprised if I was ever able to catch up to his net worth after those four years lost earnings and debts.

I think the only change we need in Australia is an attitude one. Good work = good pay; bare minimum work = bare minimum pay. That's the way it should be but employers seem reluctant to reward those working burning the midnight oil, most likely because they're reluctant to fire those who aren't pulling their weight due to unfair dismissal laws.
 
Mrmagoo said:
As first point I'd say a cull at year ten to remove the bottom 50% of students from education, and a further 50% cull at the end of year 11 so only the top 25% of students get to compete for university places.
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That's perhaps a bit extreme, but we do need to stop accepting everyone into university just to fill the funding needs of universities.
Teaching is a good example. People with ATARs of only 50 are being admitted to teaching degrees.
No wonder our literacy and numeracy rates are so far behind most of the rest of the developed world.
 

I'm not sure if that's necessarily a reflection of trying to make it an easy entrance, versus drop out rates and supply/demand for Australian teachers both domestically and world wide. Anecdotally I'm led to believe that entrance levels haven't changed significantly since the 1970's.

And our decreasing standards in literacy and numeracy have little to do with the quality and hard work of our teachers and more to do with the dropping standards in parenting.
 
I was listening to a discussion about it today and the participants (all well qualified to comment) agreed tertiary entrance standards have fallen in recent years. Well meaning, but ultimately devaluing overall the worth of a tertiary education.

And our decreasing standards in literacy and numeracy have little to do with the quality and hard work of our teachers and more to do with the dropping standards in parenting.
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That would be to suggest that if you admit as teachers people whose own literacy and numeracy is woefully lacking, it will have no effect on their capacity to communicate good literacy and numeracy to students.
Makes no sense.

I also disagree that there is any overall drop in standards of parenting. There will always be parents who are more focused on education in every sense than others, just as there will always be those who place no value on education.
 
Julia said:
I was listening to a discussion about it today and the participants (all well qualified to comment) agreed tertiary entrance standards have fallen in recent years. Well meaning, but ultimately devaluing overall the worth of a tertiary education.
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Anecdotal or statistics based? I only ask because my mother and aunty both went through teachers college in the '70s and were learning alongside individuals who received government scholarships even though they only just scraped through high school. And certainly not all the teachers I had during the 90's & 00's would have met current criteria which is passing basic maths, English and science at a grade 9 level.

Julia said:
That would be to suggest that if you admit as teachers people whose own literacy and numeracy is woefully lacking, it will have no effect on their capacity to communicate good literacy and numeracy to students.
Makes no sense.
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Not quite what I was getting at. You need to have a comprehension level above that of the students you're teaching but that's all. After that I believe people skills, and teaching skills, then become the greater determinants to imparting knowledge of the techniques and methods required to read and write, and to solve maths problems. So for example grade one, providing you can count to 100, do addition and subtraction, and know your alphabet, then you have the literacy and numeracy skills required. It's the teaching skills that make the difference at this age.

Most important of all though is practicing the skill using the learned techniques. This practice has traditionally been through reading or being read to at home, and completing homework.
 
Zedd said:
Anecdotal or statistics based? I only ask because my mother and aunty both went through teachers college in the '70s and were learning alongside individuals who received government scholarships even though they only just scraped through high school.
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Thanks for your response. Certainly anecdotally based but over many years.
Perhaps consider that in the 70's, even 80's the basic curriculum had a much stronger focus on literacy and numeracy. These days teachers have an almost impossible expectation in terms of subjects they have to cover, not to mention trying to maintain some sort of order in many public school classrooms.

In addition, the post 70's included that quite extended period of assuming children could achieve literacy via the 'whole word' approach. Didn't work, and thankfully a more phonetically based system is returning.

I know several teachers. The older ones (those almost at retirement age) have good literacy and numeracy. The younger ones don't. One of them routinely says "we should of went". She is teaching English.

Well, Zedd, I don't see it quite that way, but thanks for explaining your view. I'd much rather a teacher who had the capacity to answer the outlier questions to one who is teaching almost to the limit of his/her own understanding.
 

This is why I am surprised that we don't have more of a skills shortage. Why would anyone want to put themselves through uni or non-trades?
 
Julia said:
I'd much rather a teacher who had the capacity to answer the outlier questions to one who is teaching almost to the limit of his/her own understanding.
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Yeah completely agree, and was lucky enough to have a number of highly qualified teachers in my secondary schooling which made a noticeable difference to the quality in the classroom. But, this isn't always possible, and I don't think always necessary. I still think the main reason we're seeing declining outcome levels is due to parenting, and home life in general, rather than the quality of our teachers. Next most significant reason is changing expectations/workloads of teachers. I think any change in the quality of our teachers over the last few decades is of least significance. Still important, and they have tried to address that with the entrance exam (in QLD at least) implemented 3 or 4 years ago, but still not the greatest determining factor.
 
FlyingFox said:
This is why I am surprised that we don't have more of a skills shortage. Why would anyone want to put themselves through uni or non-trades?
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Now that I can answer! Why tackle the monotony and difficulties of life through hard work when you can post-pone it for four years and sink copious amounts of booze at uni, while telling yourself and everyone else that you're working towards a more secure, promising future...

Just glad I procrastinated with a degree that led to a career, rather than a general degree that puts you back on the bottom when you get out.
 
You sometimes have to wonder if anyone in govt etc really gives a damn.

In SA at the moment they are building a new hospital to replace the Royal Adelaide Hospital.
Great, creates work you may think.
There are over 800 new shower cubicles being fitted to the new hospital and they are all pre-made overseas, shipped in and then installed as a completed unit.
This is just one example of what is happening, meanwhile this dropkick bunch of clowns that are allegedly running the state are pouring millions of dollars of SA taxpayers money into saving the Holden car plant to protect SA jobs just like they did with Mitsubishi before they took the money and then closed up anyway.

The infamous Adelaide Airport (Australian airport of the year in 2012) had all their aerobridges built in Spain and then shipped out here (the Sydney bridges are built in NZ).

Think about these examples the next time you hear air miles Kev and his associated cohorts carry on about protecting Australian industry and jobs.
 

LOL! nice one. In all seriousness, even with career specific degrees, the promise of a career, good money and job security are no longer a given. Don't know of any jobs that will get you to 100K out of uni and not many that will get you even close 3-4 yrs in.

Maybe it's just me but the whole go to uni get paid well thing is on its head in Oz.
 
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