Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Universal Basic Income: the answer to unemployment by automation

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Posts
7,599
Reactions
2,024
Traditionally, The goods and services we need and want have been produced by a blend of Capital and labour.

However, increasingly the labour component is shrinking which will eventually lead to mass unemployment caused by a smaller need for workers, while the capital investment needed gets more intensive.

The solution to this might be what is called "universal basic income", where everyone rich or poor is paid a basic living wage, regardless of whether they work or not, and regardless of whether they are rich or not.

This will ensure those unable to work can still live, however those that can work are still rewarded with wages on top of their "Universal basic income", and those willing to invest into the system are rewarded with earnings on top of their "Universal basic income"

The instinctive reaction we be that it should be means tested or that wage earners shouldn't get it, this is a bad idea.

If it were means tested, no one living on the basic wage would ever want to invest, and you would forever have a fixed class of poor and super rich, the middle class would disappear, and it would be impossible to move up, because as soon as you had savings, your wage stops and you have to burn you savings.


 
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Posts
9,881
Reactions
2,600
IMV it is going to have to come. Arguments on social stability and the capacity of the economy to keep functioning with millions of people without any income will become critical.

Be interesting to see how the discussions develop.
 

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Posts
7,599
Reactions
2,024
It will need comprehensive tax reform.

.
I think it would take a lot less than you think, any reduction in the cost of labour would either.

1. increase company and individual taxable profits - which would increase tax revenues from those course automatically.

2, reduce prices - which means the "universal basic income" could be smaller, so the tax burden wouldn't be as high.

Not to mention that automation will also reduce the costs of government services, which would free up funds for the basic income payment.
 
Joined
Jun 30, 2008
Posts
9,881
Reactions
2,600
I think a good tweak to a USB system would be incorporating some community service component. People would need/like to have some useful structure in their lives and the opportunity to socialise.

It's the type of concept that a quality cross government committee could investigate in detail and come up with bi partisan proposals.
 

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Posts
7,599
Reactions
2,024
Richard Branson is onboard too. there was a time that unemployment payments seemed controversial.

 
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Posts
7,956
Reactions
1,060
What's with these billionaires a-holes and their talk to do good, charitable work.

Freaking... just pay your own employees a fair working wage they can survive on. That's it.

Stop lobbying for special deals from state and federal gov't just to put down your factory; stop lobbying for tax cuts; stop pretending that profits and earnings from investing in the financial markets aren't real income so should be taxed less than labour/waged income.

It's really annoying hearing these bs. Maybe the Koch brothers or Kerry Packers are more respectable because they just don't pretend to be liberal and sweet.
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Posts
7,956
Reactions
1,060
Richard Branson is onboard too. there was a time that unemployment payments seemed controversial.

"Risk of income inequality is coming" ???

When 87% of all wealth generated in 2017 goes to the top 1%... yah, it's probably here already Richie.
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Posts
14,396
Reactions
4,222
What's with these billionaires a-holes and their talk to do good, charitable work.
They have noticed the elephant in the room, which is that their staff are consumers and sacking them is bad for business. Of course none of them ever say that the money for a UBI should come from higher taxes on business, but that is another elephant that they can't see.
 

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Posts
7,599
Reactions
2,024
Of course none of them ever say that the money for a UBI should come from higher taxes on business, but that is another elephant that they can't see.
"Money" is just a medium of exchange and accounting.

The purpose of business is not to make "money", Money is just the conduit, the only reason business owners want money is because we can exchange it with other business owners for the output of their businesses.

The purpose of any business is to create products and services which can be exchanged with other producers of products and services that the owners want or need to survive.

At the moment most businesses require large amounts of human labour, So the output of the business must be shared with the people providing the labour.

In a system where labour wasn't required, business owners could just trade their output with other business owners in a closed system, there would not be any need for "customers" who weren't them selves producers of some product or service that could be traded.
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Posts
14,396
Reactions
4,222
In a system where labour wasn't required, business owners could just trade their output with other business owners in a closed system, there would not be any need for "customers" who weren't them selves producers of some product or service that could be traded.
Your logic is scrambled there. Supermarkets don't just sell groceries to other businesses because businesses of themselves don't consume groceries, people do whether they run businesses or not.
 

Value Collector

Have courage, and be kind.
Joined
Jan 13, 2014
Posts
7,599
Reactions
2,024
Your logic is scrambled there. Supermarkets don't just sell groceries to other businesses because businesses of themselves don't consume groceries, people do whether they run businesses or not.
I said business owners,

At the moment, Supermarkets sell to people with money, who are either owners of capital or providers of labour or a combination of both (excluding the people on welfare)

that money is just a token that the person has earned by either being an owner or a worker in the system that produced goods and services for the economy (except those on welfare, who are a drain on the over all system)

The system doesn't rely on the unproductive people (except that we need to earn back the money we paid in tax), it would work just fine if goods and services were just traded among those that own the system that produced them or provided the labour.

If labour wasn't required, we wouldn't need to trade with the workers, more goods and services would be available to the owners to trade with other owners.

Offcourse I don't think that would be the best system though,
 
Joined
Apr 21, 2014
Posts
7,956
Reactions
1,060
They have noticed the elephant in the room, which is that their staff are consumers and sacking them is bad for business. Of course none of them ever say that the money for a UBI should come from higher taxes on business, but that is another elephant that they can't see.
Yea, those UBI will not be coming out of these billionaires' pockets that's for sure.

It will most likely be some sort of state welfare. I mean, they're all against the minimum wage so why would they be for any sort of guaranteed income to people?

WalMart, and now Amazon, literally have sessions where they teach their employees how to claim food stamp. So employees working for these guys full time can't afford to put food on the table, are somehow eligible for gov't assistance.

That mean more tax dollars are going towards WalMart to help feed their workers. WTF?

And all the Waltons have their own "charitable" foundations. Yea, to help people I am guessing.


FBezos-Tweet-for-Forbes.jpg



Jeffy requesting ideas to help people. Seriously.

Start by looking at your own warehouse Jeffo. Failing that, look up their pay summary.
 
Joined
Mar 26, 2014
Posts
14,396
Reactions
4,222
The system doesn't rely on the unproductive people (except that we need to earn back the money we paid in tax), it would work just fine if goods and services were just traded among those that own the system that produced them or provided the labour.
Then why on earth are you proposing a UBI if it's completely unnecessary according to you ?
 

moXJO

menace to society
Joined
Aug 15, 2006
Posts
6,705
Reactions
2,507
So how are all those poorer countries going to go?
 

Similar threads

Top