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The European - Refugee/Migrant/Welfare Chaser/Humanitarian Crisis

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by DB008, Sep 19, 2015.

  1. sptrawler

    sptrawler

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    I don't disagree with you, it will all end badly, the only people who do well out of war, is big business.:1zhelp:
     
  2. banco

    banco

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    For me it comes down to if you get a barrel of apples and 10 are rotten do you keep them because the other 90 are good or send them back? As far as I'm concerned if 5%-10% of muslim immigrants and their offspring are going to cause problems (and I don't just mean terrorism) they can stay where they are. There's no shortage of immigrant groups (chinese, korean etc.) who are far, far less trouble.
     
  3. SirRumpole

    SirRumpole

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    Put safety before multiculturalism and stop immigration from Muslims countries is my advice.

    Of course you can't blame the majority for the actions of a few, but the fact is that Islam is a poisonous ideology enforced on people from the cradle and enforced later in life by threats, intimidation and violence against people who criticise Islam or want to leave it.

    We just don't need or want this form of enforced cultural and intellectual slavery in this country.
     
  4. bellenuit

    bellenuit

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    What saddens me most about the reactions of some on the left (the PC ideologues) is that they will grab the most tenuous link regarding the actions or words of their idealogical enemy as proof beyond a shred of doubt that that person/group is part of some nefarious conspiracy, yet will jump over hoops and loops to deny the blatantly obvious when it comes to those who are either in their own camp or outside their own camp but are not defined as the "real" baddies in their PC world view.

    Thus we have the "nothing to do with religion" brigade who use perverted logic that religion couldn't be the cause because others of that same religion (as if it were monolithic) haven't killed anyone or there are parts of the religious text that forbids such actions (ignoring completely the parts that demand such actions).

    You would have to be brain dead to deny that these actions were done in the name of Islam. It doesn't matter that most Muslims condemn the actions and some will even selectively quote from the Koran to show why those actions are not "legitimately" Islamic. I read on Twitter yesterday a post which fully justified these actions based on Koranic text and those of the Hadith which was countered by many with the same answer: "the actions are only applicable when at war". Those naive people fail to see that ISIS regard themselves as at war, so their actions are completely legitimate in their opinion.

    But the reason I use strong terms like brain dead to those who deny the religious link to the actions, to those same people who use the most tenuous link as absolute proof when it suits their purpose, is that ISIS themselves have stated in unambiguous words the reasons for their actions and to deny the religious motivation is just absurd.

    In the Name of Allah, the Most Merciful, the Most Beneficent

    Allah (ta'ala) said, They thought that their fortresses would protect them from Allah but Allah came upon them from where they had not expected, and He cast terror into their hearts so they destroyed their houses by their own hands and the hands of the believers. So take warning, O people of vision [Al-Hashr:2].

    In a blessed battle whose causes of success were enabled by Allah, a group of believers from the soldiers of the Caliphate (may Allah strengthen and support it) set out targeting the capital of prostitution and vice, the lead carrier of the cross in Europe ”” Paris. This group of believers were youth who divorced the worldly life and advanced towards their enemy hoping to be killed for Allah's sake, doing so in support of His religion, His Prophet (blessing and peace be upon him), and His allies. They did so in spite of His enemies. Thus, they were truthful with Allah ”” we consider them so ”” and Allah granted victory upon their hands and cast terror into the hearts of the crusaders in their very own homeland.

    And so eight brothers equipped with explosive belts and assault rifles attacked precisely chosen targets in the center of the capital of France. These targets included the Stade de France stadium during a soccer match ”” between the teams of Germany and France, both of which are crusader nations ”” attended by the imbecile of France (Francois Hollande). The targets included the Bataclan theatre for exhibitions, where hundreds of pagans gathered for a concert of prostitution and vice. There were also simultaneous attacks on other targets in the tenth, eleventh, and eighteenth districts, and elsewhere. Paris was thereby shaken beneath the crusaders' feet, who were constricted by its streets. The result of the attacks was the deaths of no less than two hundred crusaders and the wounding of even more. All praise, grace, and favor belong to Allah.

    Allah blessed our brothers and granted them what they desired. They detonated their explosive belts in the masses of the disbelievers after finishing all their ammunition. We ask Allah to accept them amongst the martyrs and to allow us to follow them.

    Let France and all nations following its path know that they will continue to be at the top of the target list for the Islamic State and that the scent of death will not leave their nostrils as long as they partake in the crusader campaign, as long as they dare to curse our Prophet (blessings and peace be upon him), and as long as they boast about their war against Islam in France and their strikes against Muslims in the lands of the Caliphate with their jets, which were of no avail to them in the filthy streets and alleys of Paris. Indeed, this is just the beginning. It is also a warning for any who wish to take heed.

    Allah is the greatest.

    (And to Allah belongs all honor, and to His Messenger, and to the believers, but the hypocrites do not know) [Al-Munafiqun: 8].
     
  5. pixel

    pixel DIY Trader

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    Let's just analyse that and put it in perspective. Maybe look at another belief system.

    A good many people believe in - and fight for with legal and economic sanctions - everybody's right to profit from marketing and selling goods and services. Let's call this the Religion of Free Enterprise. This religion is instilled in "people from the cradle and enforced later in life by threats, intimidation and violence against people who criticise" it. Note that threats can take many forms, and affect the victims equally hard, be they loss of property, livelihood, loved ones, or life.

    Read about 1000 victims of CBA fraud: http://www.bankvictims.com.au/commonwealth-bank-of-australia
    Read about 15 Australians dying each day: http://theconversation.com/australias-daily-alcohol-toll-15-deaths-and-430-hospitalisations-29906
    Read about the number of gun deaths: http://edition.cnn.com/2015/10/02/us/oregon-shooting-terrorism-gun-violence/

    Guns vs Terror.gif

    None of the above excuses the deliberate actions of a small minority of extremists that bring death and misery to Millions. But there is no justification for calls to ban one religion for the atrocities perpetrated in its name, yet ignoring the misery caused by another.

    224 Russian tourists killed in a plane crash, hundreds shot at a concert, and the affected States maintain three days of national mourning. Such single events are spectacular and shocking. But spread over 365 days, even hundred times the number hardly rates a mention.

    not excusing either ... just sayin ...
     
  6. pixel

    pixel DIY Trader

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    So much for the similarities. Now let's look at the differences:

    After a number of years, CBA fraudsters are at last brought before the Courts; that will be cold comfort to the families that lost their properties, even loved ones. There will also be apologists that accuse alcohol and gambling addicts of character weakness, claiming nobody "forced them" - implying everybody has a choice to say No.

    The fact remains, however, that modern marketing psychologists use the same indoctrination techniques that the "Prophets" have been applying through the ages: Implant their type of belief system into the developing brains from early childhood, and you have the vast majority of them for life. The few non-believers are easily eliminated: Chop off their hands or heads in one system, put them in prison or deport them to Botany Bay, or try and "re-educate" dissidents in Gulags or labour camps.

    Where the "Religion of Free Enterprise" seems to differentiate itself from especially the Islam: It accepts the wisdom of new "Prophets" that suggest modifications and adapt to changed circumstances. Thereby it creates a moving target for dissidents, even renounces earlier doctrines if they prove counterproductive. You can't get any more profit from a dead consumer, so it's better to let them live; even in jail there's money to be made, e.g. by outsourcing guards and administration, demanding all mod cons in prison cells - let it be paid for by Taxes.

    Islam, on the other hand, is relying on Mohamed's early version of "Mein Kampf", which is equally open to interpretation, but, unfortunately, didn't suffer the same fate as the more recent version penned by the Austrian-born megalomaniac. While the guardians of almost every version of Islam have condemned recent extremism publicly, their reaction doesn't go as far as accepting the need for a revision of the original text. Instead of joining the efforts to extinguish the fires in Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan, ... Saudi Arabia for example offers to fund 300 new mosques to be built in Germany alone; and their condemnation of the terror attacks sounds very hollow compared to their feeble or non-existent attempts to curb the flow of funds and weapons into ISIL.

    IMHO, the much-quoted "Humanity" needs to adopt a coordinated diplomatic and economic approach: Reform or remain isolated. The ideals of humane tolerance - "Liberty, Equality, Fraternity" - can only be applied to countries that reciprocate. Those that refuse may well be left on their own: No cross-border traffic, no commerce, no contact.

    Of course, it may be too late for that approach, and the West will rather risk self-destruction by rescuing those Millions of poor refugees. To some extent, the "Coalition of the Willing" must accept some blame for the radicalisation in the wake of their 2003 invasion. But the population in those regions needs to make the effort to help themselves - especially the young able-bodied men.
     
  7. SirRumpole

    SirRumpole

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    While I agree that "competition policy" may be similar to a religion and I certainly don't agree with the relentless privatisation of social services like health insurance, electricity, banking and education we do live in a democracy that can challenge these values and reverse their effects if this is what is publicly desired.

    Islam is not a democracy, it's an autocracy with a few mullahs directing the reasoning powers of a large number of people for their own ends. The religion is the State and contrary views are not countenanced. The ultimate examples are Iran and Saudi Arabia, dissent is punished by torture and death.

    So really, although comparisons may exist between religious and economic ideologies they are fairly tenuous when it comes to comparing secular democracies (that at least have some laws to protect the public from the worst effects of ideology) with theocracies that have no protection from their own ideologies and don't recognise basic freedoms like freedom of speech , association and religion.
     
  8. pixel

    pixel DIY Trader

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    Agree, Sir R; that is the essence of my second post.
    Islam is at a similar stage as the Catholic Church was 6-700 years ago. Dissidents burned on the stakes; critics tortured on the rack; pagans massacred.
    The respective sky fairies people are made to believe in may differ, but the methods of enforcement have remained the same. The Islamic world needs a Martin Luther and/or enlightened reformer to avoid self-destruction. That reformation has to come from within; secular democracies on the outside have little or no influence.
     
  9. luutzu

    luutzu

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    It will all end badly if we let it.

    Watch how over the next few days and weeks, watch how the murder of innocent Parisian will be used to further advanced politicians and armed dealers interests. I'm willing to bet Israel's Netanyahu will make another trip to Paris, speak to a few Jewry French, fly home and beat up some more Palestinians.

    Then watch the jets over Syria and other ME countries... then the guys that planned the Paris attackers will use it and recruit... and on and on.

    "Never let a tragedy go to waste" as they say. Crazies.
     
  10. Wysiwyg

    Wysiwyg Everyone wants money

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    Thankfully they didn't bring any garbage religious belief or death wish vengeance. They dressed casually, they accepted the Australian way of life, they mingled, liked a beer and a laugh and made better lives for themselves with no hidden agenda.
     
  11. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    Governments aren't going to be able to find a solution, unfortunately.

    The first step is to understand that the thoughts which we have are mostly not our own.

    ELEPHANT.

    I type or say the word "elephant" and you have no choice but to have that same thought register in your mind, along with subconscious images and sounds and maybe smells of an elephant. Not only that, but your subconscious will register a whole range of associated thoughts, such as 'Africa', 'savanna', 'lion', 'zebra'... or whatver your particular associations might be. You had no control over this. I created the thought in your mind by typing it, just as you create thoughts in my mind when I read what you write. How's that for power?

    Is there such a thing as a spoken truth? Or is everything opinion? If it's just opinion, how much is it worth? And yet, looking at what happened in Paris, we know thoughts are extremely powerful and extremely dangerous when they are believed. What would have happened if you were born to Muslim-Iranian parents? Can you imagine how poisoned your mind would be?

    Knowing this, it's possible to start the process of watching the mind, seeing how it works. This is the real solution. We think that we think our thoughts, but that's rarely the case. They are not our will, just a reflex. Occasionally, a very advanced person, (an Einsten, a Buddha, a Jesus, a Da Vinci) has an original thought. And we parrot it, misinterpert it, screw it right up...

    A good experiment is to doubt all thoughts. Take both sense and nonsense and treat them with equal disrespect.
     
  12. luutzu

    luutzu

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    You pick a barrel of any group of people and there'll be a few bad ones there; Put that barrel under certain condition and the fresher ones will become rotten too.

    Again, I have never excuse any kind of violence... people should, I think we'd all agree, find peaceful ways to resolve their differences and any perceive injustices.

    We're all different and at the same time also all the same. I bet you you could never remove the differences between any two person.
     
  13. luutzu

    luutzu

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    If we take away the Koran and Islam, or if we imagine such religion never existed and have everything remaining the same... will the terrorists do the same thing they do - just pray to a different God or call themselves a different people?

    It's not about PC... just facts. And PC does not just extend to criticism of Islam either... there too are things we ought not say about ourselves and our gov't.
     
  14. Wysiwyg

    Wysiwyg Everyone wants money

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    I saw this word and immediately jumped out of my seat and walked around the room with an arm dangling in front of my nose and swinging to and fro while making strange noises. :eek: Your knowledge of the subconscious mind is exceptional. :kiffer:
     
  15. Dividend

    Dividend

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    Religion of Peace.
     
  16. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    But the word 'elephant' stuck in your mind long enough to write that reply. Maybe longer. Maybe it's there again right now. See how easy that is? Now say I use some trickery - maybe I could get that word to trunk there all day. Religions use such hypnotic techniques unconsciously (meaning they believe what they preach). Grey, wrinkly Prime Ministers and the media are a bit smarter. They're not afraid of mice. Big business is the heaviset of all - they can get you thinking whatever they want. The only defense is awareness. It's that same awareness I was trying to ignite in you, but you seem to have missed the point... Tsk, tusk.

    Or maybe you're just having some fun. If so, fine.
     
  17. banco

    banco

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    The "bad apple" muslims are of a different type than any other from migrant groups. Worst we got from other migrant groups was some crime.
     
  18. Wysiwyg

    Wysiwyg Everyone wants money

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    The question at the forefront of my mind now is .....

    Are you really Peter Powers?
     
  19. Gringotts Bank

    Gringotts Bank

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    Just trying to pull my own strings here.

    As Ivor E. White used to say "Now you can't forget".

    Not that it's a problem. From now on, whenever you see or hear the word elephant, you will feel amazing. So good in fact, you can't help but trade well. Not much you can do about it.
     
  20. luutzu

    luutzu

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    There are plenty of Muslim small time crooks and shifty tradies too... not all their criminals are terrorists.

    Seriously though, terrorism is way too serious to slap some simple explanation on then just go to war and show them we're much tougher and deadlier.

    If we think that Islam and Muslims are responsible for terrorism... then the solution is pretty simple: either with us or against us; either abandon your faith, join ours or else; go march and liberate at all costs... but when some of them flee to us seeking refuge, close the gates because we can't be sure etc.

    Losing our freedom, privacy and humanity is one thing if it keeps us safe and stop the terrorists; just it'd be a real personal tragedy to lose all that and maybe our kingdom too because we let pride and emotion take over.
     
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