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Other ways to make money when market is going down?

Discussion in 'Beginner's Lounge' started by grah33, Jun 30, 2015.

  1. grah33

    grah33

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    HI
    I've been exploring ways to make money in markets while the market is going down and i've been considering CFDS (for shorting shares). There seems to be a lot of controversy about them, so still looking at that. can i ask, what other equities/stocks/markets and so on could one trade when the asx market is going down? i don't work many hours (long story) so i'm really interested in finding ways to make money when our market is also going down and not just up. or perhaps i should try IB and look for long trades for international shares (?).

    also, any cheap but also good cfd brokers/providers that people can suggest for me?

    thanks
     
  2. tech/a

    tech/a No Ordinary Duck

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    E minis

    http://www.investopedia.com/university/how-to-trade-e-mini-futures-contracts/what-are-the-eminis.asp
    Trade through IB

    OR

    CFD's with all their issues.
     
  3. CanOz

    CanOz Home runs feel good, but base hits pay bills!

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    I don't trade FX, but there have been some great moves on the EUR.USD around the EU open. There are lots of mini currency futures contracts for these as well.

    The thing that is on offer when markets are selling off is not just declines, but volitility. If you have the patience and discipline to work on a method, its these types of markets that can reward you the most, compared to what you risk.


    CanOz
     
  4. grah33

    grah33

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    keep the suggestions rolling. i'll look in them.

    ideally i want to be able to utilize the skills i got already - analyzing trends charts and volume

    (i'm also curious to know if there are people out there who actually profit by shorting through cfds. it just seems so unpopular and risky and dodgy (from other peoples posts). also, i checked with IB, they don't allow australians to use CFDs, restrictions apply)
     
  5. skc

    skc Goldmember

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    I answered the same question many years ago. Do an advance serach on the forum.

    One new addition to that list.

    BEAR.AXW - the ETF that is the inverse of the market. So BEAR goes up when the market goes down. It's an ETF so it trades like a share and negates some of the downside of CFDs. But I have no idea about liquidity and spread and how accurately it follows (inversely) the market.
     
  6. grah33

    grah33

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    search using which keywords? it didn't come up...
     
  7. AlterEgo

    AlterEgo

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    I have found too many restrictions with shorting share CFD's to be bothered with them. For starters, the number of securities available to short is fairly limited (top 2-300 on the ASX), and also when I have tried to short some I'd often have my order rejected due to "short sell limit excedeed". So now I just trade long, during all market conditions.

    There's nothing dodgy about CFD's, as long as they are DMA, and only risky if you are using too much leaverage.
     
  8. tech/a

    tech/a No Ordinary Duck

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    You really only need to be very good at one thing.
    So pick one and become super good at it.

    FTSE is good for "L"plates at $16 a tick.
    You can go long and short.
    Doesn't trade like the DAX----but does comply
    very well to technical analysis.
    When you get really good (Cashed) just add contracts.
     
  9. sinner

    sinner

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    You can also buy some things that have low/inverse correlation with the market, the three most common examples would be:

    * Options strategies which profit from transition from low to high dispersion, e.g. ATM straddles or VIX futures
    * Long term government bonds
    * US Dollar Index

    Some slightly more obscure ones would be:

    * Buy harder currencies than yours, e.g. Japanese Yen or Swiss Francs
    * Buy Gold
     
  10. grah33

    grah33

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    i'm still reading and reflecting on all these suggestions. the products are confusing enough for a newby, but i'll work it all out.

    true, i only want to do shares - just one thing as Tech suggested- but a cheap brokerage is also important at this point in time (certainly desirable). so i'm looking. not feeling good about shorting shares with macquarie (20$ brokerage to open a position i've been told). perhaps IB does the london footsie cheaply ...
     
  11. bonkerrs

    bonkerrs

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  12. Trembling Hand

    Trembling Hand Can be found on the bid

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    Thats the total value of the contract. You only need enough to sensibly cover margin. Which is around $500 to $1000 per contract depending on broker.

    What dictates if you can afford to trade it is position sizing.
     
  13. grah33

    grah33

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    i take it you mean to trade the FTSE index itself, using cfds or what?
     
  14. tech/a

    tech/a No Ordinary Duck

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    The Index Future itself.
    Not a CFD.
     
  15. bonkerrs

    bonkerrs

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    Thanks TH.

    Please help me understand... If starting with a $30k capital. Could you please provide an example of what might be a sensible trade of UQU5 (that's a S&P500 Emini Nasdaq 100 right?) And what the maximum risk with that particular trade?
     
  16. grah33

    grah33

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    lots of technical terms here to get down my throat :eek:


    just wondering, as i've learnt about technical analyses for shares only, are the same analyses skills used in forex, cfds (dma based), futures and options and warrants? when the market is going down and i wish to keep trading i might look for an instrument that utilizes the same analyses skills, so that's why i ask. the less to learn the better.
     
  17. tech/a

    tech/a No Ordinary Duck

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    There is a vast difference between " learning " Technical Analysis and applying it to turn a consistent profit.
    In any instrument.

    Options are a totally different ball game.

    There are a number of different warrants linked to shares. Use a long term analysis of the underlying.
    Never traded CFD's
    Futures have their own nuences and can comply well with analysis.
    I would suggest you trade on sim until you can trade a profit for 6 mths.
     
  18. Triathlete

    Triathlete Keep it Simple..!

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    Very wise words Tech/A......

    and adding my own rule

    "Do not risk your capital if you are not sure you can succeed."
     
  19. grah33

    grah33

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    i've been using puny sized positions so i'm still good, and one of my stocks is going up, so i might end up back to 0$ or close enough. really no drama at all. i 'd like to try trading with a little money, and if it doesn't work i'll just sim trade only until i know i can do it. but that's a great suggestion (sim trading). made too many long positions in a down market ( don't know why i did that, as i knew i shouldn't be trading long in these conditions. but i exited early (great tip from you people))
     
  20. tech/a

    tech/a No Ordinary Duck

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    No offence meant but from your posts you have a very long way to travel.
     
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