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Is Shorten PM material?

Discussion in 'General Chat' started by dutchie, Apr 24, 2012.

Is Shorten PM material?

  1. Yes

    3 vote(s)
    21.4%
  2. No

    11 vote(s)
    78.6%
  1. SirRumpole

    SirRumpole

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    So what if Turnbull loses ? He'll be out for sure.
     
  2. noco

    noco

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    Rumpy, he ain't gonna lose.
     
  3. noco

    noco

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    We always knew Labor was controlled by the CFMEU and now the union has made it official.....Bill Shorten is their puppet and he must toe the line or else...This also applies to all Labor MPs.

    http://www.couriermail.com.au/news/...e/news-story/0670aaea504cc1715d9cd8f7bf707282


    A SENIOR official within a militant state branch of the CFMEU has vowed to take over the Labor Party and bring down ALP politicians who refuse to bow to demands.

    Video footage of the CFMEU officials’ brazen call-to-arms to help kill off the construction watchdog will be used by the Turnbull Government today to embarrass Bill Shorten and highlight the need for the Australian Building and Construction Commission to be reintroduced.

    Just days after the Opposition Leader praised the union movement at Queensland’s state conference, footage released today reveals serial offender Joe McDonald and his co-West Australian state secretary Graham Pallot rallying troops.

    The 1-minute 40-second long footage, taken in April and posted on the private Facebook page of a union member, shows Mr McDonald addressing a crowd before Mr Pallot vows to stack and infiltrate the ALP with CFMEU officials and sympathisers.




    CFMEU Assistant State Secretary Joe McDonald, right. Pic: MARIE NIRME.
    “What we’ve actually got to do is take ownership and responsibility of the ALP,” Mr Pallot says.

    “We’ve got to go in there and get the numbers. For every 40 people that join, the construction branch gets more say.

    “We are getting influence in the ALP and that’s how we’re going to get in there. We’re not going to wait for the politicians to come and do it for us.

    “With your support, we’re going to put politicians in that represent the working class.

    “If they don’t we’re going to remove the politician and we’ve got to replace them with someone who does stand up for the values we want ... (that gets) rid of the ABCC.

    “We’re not just going to ask them to do it we’re going to go in and demand they do it.’’

    The WA branch of the CFMEU has significant control over who is preselected to represent the ALP.

    Those without union support generally fail in their bid for parliament.

    Mr McDonald has been fined more than $1 million because of workplace laws.

    He was once taped making threatening comments about a worksite company official.

    In July this year, Federal Court Judge Michael Barker said of Mr McDonald, “the fact of the matter is that the history of contraventions attributable to Mr McDonald shows that he uses unlawful industrial action as a calculated tool”.

    In 2013, Mr McDonald was fined more than $30,000 after threatening to have workers thrown off a job site if they refused to strike.

    Kevin Rudd expelled Mr McDonald from the Labor Party but he has since rejoined.


    We need the ABCCC back as soon as possible to stop these thugs.
     
  4. noco

    noco

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    Just had an obnoxious phone call from Bill Shorten...I told him to b*gger off....More Green/Labor left wing commo propaganda.
     
  5. SirRumpole

    SirRumpole

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    Wow, you must be really important.

    :rolleyes:
     
  6. noco

    noco

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    Barnacle Bill just could not resist being political in his Xmas message to the Nation as Craig Kelly explained on Face Book...What a wanker.

    ABUSING A CHRISTMAS TRADITION

    It's a long standing Christmas tradition, that Christmas messages from political leaders are non-political.

    And this year we again heard inspiring non-political messages of hope, peace and goodwill from leaders around the world including; Malcolm Turnbull, Theresa May, Boris Johnson, Barack Obama, The Queen and many others.

    But there was one exception; Bill Shorten.

    Bill Shorten sought to exploit this Christmas tradition, by politicising his Christmas message by referring to "penalty rates" stating "they are something I'll always fight for".

    First, the absolutely hypocrisy.

    As 'The Australian' has detailed of the CleanEvent scandal;

    " ......while Mr Shorten was AWU Victoria state secretary and Cleanevent’s union representative, an EBA was entered, which reversed worker-friendly deals, REMOVING NIGHT-SHIFT PENALTIES AND WEEKEND LOADINGS".

    "The deal was highly beneficial for Cleanevent because the bulk of cleaning work was conducted outside office hours, and DURING WEEKENDS, cleaning up after events ....

    "Analysis based on wages bills conducted by The Australian, with the aid of industry experts, shows that taking into account the differences to the EBA introduced in 1998 workers were collectively about $420m worse off than they would have been had LEAVE LOADINGS NOT BEEN REMOVED from the EBA."

    The final report of the Royal Commission noted of this sweetheart deal which ripped away penalty rates;

    “Both the AWU and Cleanevent were conscious during the negotiation process that if Cleanevent’s rates were accepted, it was unlikely that the 2004 EBA (enterprise bargaining agreement) would meet the no-disadvantage test,” the report said.

    “However, that was a matter kept from the Australian Industrial Relations Commission.

    “In exchange for payments of $25,000 per year, the Victorian branch of the AWU in substance agreed for three years not to seek better terms and conditions for those of its members employed by Cleanevent.

    “It would not have been difficult to obtain better terms and conditions. But the Victorian branch of the AWU preferred to take money for itself.

    “For workers employed by Cleanevent the outcome was appalling. The members of the Cleanevent management team involved in the deal described it as saving the company amounts ranging from $1 million to $2 million.

    “All involved benefited from the deal except the people the union was supposed to be representing.’’

    Secondly, the fakery.

    Stating penalty rates are "something I'll always fight for" is another of Labor's false flag operations.

    It's just like the Mediscare lies where Labor over and over peddled lies about "Medicare being privatised by Coalition" to deceive the public, when Labor knew it was impossible for Medicare to be privatised.

    And Labor are doing the same thing on penalty rates. The facts are that Penalty rates in Australia are set the independent Fair Work Commission, not the Government.

    Yet Labor peddle over and over the false scare campaign that Coalition are going to strip away penalty rates leaving workers out of pocket, when under the Fair Work Act 2009 (which the Coalition have no proposal to change) Labor know that's impossible.

    By abusing Christmas traditions and by so hypocritically exploiting his Christmas message to try and give weight to this trickery, Bill Shorten has given yet another example of why he is completely unfit to ever be Prime Minister of Australia.

    http://www.sbs.com.au/…/shortens-christmas-penalty-rates-pl…
     
  7. explod

    explod explod

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    Any leader worth his salt and half a conscience should have mentioned the families of and the 19 unemployed for each existing job and the findings that drug increases particularly ice is coming from this sector of our people. I have no time for Shorten at all but at least he was skirting around the edges with a bit of substance.

    Not like the empty "jobs and growth" repeat with no how to. Just cut taxes for the wealthiest businesses. Ever wondered noco on what makes a commo, fabian or socialist.?
     
  8. noco

    noco

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    It depends on which organisation you want to follow because there are many variations in Socialism as explained in the link below.......For some countries, Socialism or Communism has been a total failure as proven in Russia, Cuba and North Korea where it had all started by Karl Marx....China has distinctly moved away from Communism where free enterprise is now accepted.

    One of the problems with Socialism is the lack of incentive for workers to improve their wealth.......Under socialism workers do really care if there are over or under runs in factories
    due to lack of marketing research.

    The reason why many countries are reducing business tax is induce investment and create more employment.

    I am not sure which one you would want to follow

    http://www.wikihow.com/Be-a-Socialists.

    Off Topic.
     
  9. explod

    explod explod

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    Specifically I do not follow anyone, I try to think for myself. I feel most people who have had a reasonable education would do the same. In my earlier years politicians were fairly individual and put forward the concerns of the peoples from within their electorates. Today they have to toe the line party wise or your out. So democracy has gone in my view. And Shorten as with Turnbull follow that dictatorial way. And in feeding the sheeple with hollow nothings in the xmas messages it is clear.

    As for trying to label or class peoples into different groups you perpetuate the idea of drafting and controlling individuality.
     
  10. noco

    noco

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    So you don't even follow the social ideology of the Greens which you have often said you are member.

    So under socialism would workers loose their penalty rates like they did at Cleanevent and Chiquita?

    Under Socialism I understand that everybody is equal...Therefore if you are a Labourer, a plumber or a doctor you all get the same rates of pay......You down down tools when your 38 hours are up.
     
  11. explod

    explod explod

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    The is no flexibity in you thinking noco, under your world wed be tin soldiers all in a row. Waste of time discussing anything reasonable with you ole pal. Have a good one
     
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  12. noco

    noco

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    Oh come on Plod, I am serious....I want to know more about Socialism and what really happens and I could not think of anyone more suited to explain it to me.
     
  13. PZ99

    PZ99 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    That doesn't mean anything. You can still "fight" for penalty rates regardless of who they are set by. It's the one reason I stopped voting Liberal - every time they get in they bash penalty rates - cost John Howard his seat to an ABC journalist. LOL
     
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  14. noco

    noco

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    But didn't Bill Shorten bash the penalty rates for Cleanevent and Chiquita or have you forgotten?..Shorten also allowed 457 visa for Mc Donalds to allow them to bring in overseas workers at very low rates of pay.

    Years ago when shops closed at midday on Saturday and there was no weekend trading, penallty rates were awarded to those who worked 40 hours Monday to Friday for the one employer and then were asked to work on Saturday or Sunday......Now we have have businesses open almost 24/7 and workers are taking a second job with a different employer to make ends meet and then expecting penalty rates before they have worked their now 38 hours for the second employer...What I am trying to say is the system has been exploited by the unions....If employees want to take a second job on weekends over and above their normal job Monday to Friday, should they be entitled to penalty rates or not?
     
  15. PZ99

    PZ99 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    Absolutely they should. The error you are making is linking penalty rates with overtime. Did you work yesterday? Or the Day before? :)
    Penalty rates have nothing to do with overtime. They are a rate set to reimburse an employee for working non sociable hours.

    I have to laugh at this claim by the business community that we are a 24/7 society. We're not. If we were there would be no weekends. No weekends = banks, schools, stock market open every day and every night.

    Employers want to kill off penalty rates solely to increase their profits or in the case of small business to become viable (if they aren't viable under this current climate they're in the wrong game)

    I'm well aware of the Bill Shorten Cleanevent and Chiquita affair. I'm also well aware that since that time the Howard Govt killed off penalty rates altogether and elements of this Govt want to do it again.
     
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  16. noco

    noco

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    This link may change your mind about Howard killing off penalty rates when in fact it was instigated by Paul Keating and followed on by Labor MP Mark Butler.

    Enjoy the ride.


    http://www.theaustralian.com.au/nat...s/news-story/aa039ea7e0a43053401e4faedf198901

    Labor’s Mark Butler has hailed a landmark deal to slash penalty rates as the realisation of Paul Keating’s economic vision, as the Abbott government said the complicated “machinery” of the penalty rates system could be further redesigned.

    The Australian this morning revealed the country’s largest union has agreed to slash weekend penalty rates for the retail sector in a breakthrough deal in South Australia that could affect up to 40,000 workers and be replicated across the nation.

    In the first agreement of its kind for small business in Australia, penalty rates will be abolished on Saturdays and halved on Sundays in exchange for a higher base rate of pay and other improved conditions.

    Mr Butler, a senior South Australian frontbencher and candidate for Labor national president, said the bargaining process used to reach the deal between employers and the shoppies union is what Labor has supported for more than 20 years.

    “This is what we envisaged when Paul Keating’s government put together the enterprise bargaining model,” Mr Butler, who worked for 15 years as a union official, said in Canberra.

    “This is exactly the model that we envisaged and it’s in stark contrast to the idea that you would go up to the industrial commission and try to change – unilaterally – the penalty rates across the country.”

    [​IMG]
    Labor national president candidate Mark Butler said the bargaining process used to reach the deal between employers and the shoppies union is what Labor has supported for more than 20 years.

    Small Business Minister Bruce Billson said the template agreement, signed between the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees Association and Business SA, highlighted “the flexibility that’s in the current law”.

    “There are mechanisms in the current law. Whether they are adequate, whether they’re responsive, whether one can navigate them, they’re important discussions for the Productivity Commission review,” Mr Billson told Sky News.

    “Even this quite constructive and encouraging step forward, it still required a big industry association to navigate the procedural requirements and get to the point where there is a template agreement that a retailer in South Australia can discuss with their employees and see if it works well for all of them.

    “How friendly is it to a smaller enterprise to navigate this machinery, which seems designed more for big organisations and representative organisations rather than for a small, nimble, agile smaller enterprise looking just to get ahead to create opportunities for themselves and their communities?”

    “What’s Bill Shorten’s position? He sort of thinks we live in this nine-to-five, back-to-the-50s kind of economy; that’s not the case.”

    Employment Minister Eric Abetz said the South Australian negotiators “should be applauded for taking a constructive approach”.

    “It highlights the benefits of encouraging workplaces to sit down and negotiate terms and conditions that suit their specific needs,” Senator Abetz told The Australian.

    “Setting penalty rates is a matter for the Fair Work Commission, but if workplaces can arrange a better deal on which they agree that complies with the law, they should be encouraged to do so.”

    “The question is — will Bill Shorten and Labor support this deal?”

    Labor deputy leader Tanya Plibersek said: “I’m not going to start commentating on individual agreements that employees and employers strike in particular workplaces or in particular industries. I think that this shows that there’s flexibility in the system but I’m not going to comment on it beyond that.”

    Labor parliamentary secretary Matt Thistlethwaite said the South Australian deal was “by all accounts, a win-win for the employees and the businesses involved”.

    “This deal proves that you can reach arrangements with them but you need to consult with employees and you need to make sure they’re better off over all. That’s the test in the system: they need to be better off overall,” he said.

    Assistant Infrastucture Minister Jamie Briggs, a South Australian, said the deal vindicated the coalition’s position that penalty rates were a matter for the Fair Work Commission.

    “If employers and employees work together for their best interests then we’ll get a better result,” he said.

    Independent SA senator Nick Xenophon says Saturday and Sunday are now regarded as ordinary trading days for the hospitality and retail sectors.

    “It’s always been my position that there needs to be greater flexibility for small employers,” he said.

    South Australian Family First senator Bob Day said the deal marked “the long overdue fall of one of many remaining barriers to getting a job”.

    NSW Liberal Democrats senator David Leyonhjelm said Australians who wanted to work weekends had been priced out of the market by penalty rates. He also described South Australia as an economic basket case.

    “Maybe somebody there has finally woken up to the fact that they do need to change if they’re going to turn it around.”

    First agreement of its kind

    The country’s largest union has agreed to slash weekend penalty rates for the retail sector in a breakthrough deal in South Australia that could affect up to 40,000 workers and be replicated across the nation.

    In the first agreement of its kind for small business in Australia, penalty rates will be abolished on Saturdays and halved on Sundays in exchange for a higher base rate of pay and other improved conditions.

    The Australian Chamber of Commerce and Industry said the agreement reached between the shop assistants’ union and the state chamber of commerce could help reboot the struggling retail sector and stimulate jobs growth.

    ACCI chief executive Kate Carnell said she was pleased the Shop Distributive and Allied Employees’ Association (SDA) had acknowledged that penalty rates were an “obvious” problem for small businesses and said the agreement provided scope for an agreed national template.

    “We are pleased that the SDA has focused on what is a very real problem and we would hope that sort of focus happened more broadly across Australia,” she said.

    “This template approach gives these smaller retailers a real opportunity to compete better with larger retailers, and also look at how they can grow their business and employ more people, particularly the significant number of youth that are unemployed.

    “We are hopeful that this would flow across Australia.”

    Amid a political impasse on changing industrial relations laws, the deal has also highlighted the ability of business to use the enterprise bargaining framework to win ground on penalty rates.

    The government has asked the Productivity Commission to undertake a public inquiry to examine the workplace relations framework, but has ruled out making any changes before the next election.

    The template agreement signed between the SDA and Business SA can be adopted by small businesses if agreed to by employees, and would apply to about two-thirds of the state’s 60,000 retail workers employed in small and medium-sized businesses.

    It reduces penalty rates for Sundays from a 100 per cent loading to 50 per cent, cuts public holiday rates from 150 per cent to 100 per cent, and abolishes penalty rates on Saturdays and weekday evenings.

    In exchange, workers will receive a higher base wage than under the award, a guaranteed 3 per cent annual pay rise, and an unprecedented right to refuse to work on Sundays and public holidays. It also gives permanent workers the right to every second weekend off.

    For a full-time shop assistant, the base rate of pay would jump by 8 per cent from $703.90 a week to $760 a week.

    Each workplace would still need to submit a signed agreement to the Fair Work Commission to pass the “better off overall” test to come into effect.

    Rhett Biglands, a former AFL footballer who owns Nike Rundle Mall in Adelaide, said penalty rates on public holidays had previously made it uneconomic for him to open. The template model was a positive move for small business, he said, and would allow employees such as 22-year-old Danielle Pipicella to benefit.

    “Anything that would help me open on those public holidays and Sundays would help me out and help my customers out, and would provide more employment for young people,” he said.

    Business SA chief executive Nigel McBride, who negotiated the deal after being approached by SDA state secretary Peter Malinauskas, said the state’s businesses were “suffering” under the national award system.

    He said given the absence of political will from the Abbott government to tackle unaffordable penalty rates — particularly while SA suffered the country’s highest unemployment rate of 6.9 per cent — business needed an urgent solution. “We want a fundamental overhaul of penalty rates, but we have to have a pragmatic alternative because it is clear to us that nothing is going to change,” Mr McBride said.

    “This will be a first in Australia. It is the leading national example of a peak chamber and a peak union getting together and saying we are unhappy and let’s have a compromise.”

    He said the union movement had been in “utter denial” about the impact of penalty rates on jobs growth nationally, which he believed would pick up if business adopted the new agreement. “This is an important acknowledgment by the country and the state’s largest union that penalty rates have got to be addressed, and that in the SME sector, penalty rates are really having a negative impact.”

    Mr Malinauskas said the union had not conceded penalty rates were a problem, and had instead demonstrated the current enterprise bargaining system worked. “If employers want to address the issue of penalty rates, they should do it by negotiating with employees and their representatives, not by unilaterally cutting entitlements via the Fair Work Commission,” he said. “The penalty rate structure that exists within the award should be maintained and should not be taken away, but if employers are wanting to do something about penalty rates, they need only negotiate with their employees.”

    He said the big win for workers was securing the right to refuse to work on Sundays and public holidays.

    “The political argument from employers and conservative commentators on this issue is that there are all these people who are working on Sundays because they want to work on Sundays — this puts that principle to the test.”

    Restaurant and Catering Industry Association chief executive John Hart said the hospitality sector would welcome a similar deal. “I am sceptical that positivity towards negotiation is widespread among unions,” he said, “but I am very pleased that at least in South Australia, and at least in retail, they have seen the light.”

    SDA national secretary Gerard Dwyer said penalty rates were an important issue for workers, but the right to refuse to work weekends and public holidays was a significant achievement of the agreement. “Voluntary work on a Sunday in the retail industry in this country is an amazing step forward. I wouldn’t be surprised if other branches might be interested in doing something similar.”

    Additional reporting: AAP
     
  17. PZ99

    PZ99 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    No that link didn't change my mind. Exchanging penalty rates for a higher base pay is totally different from slashing them altogether which the Howard Govt did.

    Nice try though :)
     
  18. Tisme

    Tisme Apathetic at Best

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    Good to see you are worried about workers rights Noco. Makes a nice change to see you championing those from whence you came as a young Pip Pirrip. Here's me thinking you were ashamed of all those Joe Gargerys of your formative years.;)
     
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  19. noco

    noco

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    So do you have a link or some proof about John Howard slashing penalty rates.

    You seem reluctant to criticize Bill Shorten and his dirty deal for the workers of Cleanevent , Chiquita, Coles and McDonalds.
     
  20. PZ99

    PZ99 ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)

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    Are you saying that Bill Shorten negotiating away penalty rates for a better base pay was a "dirty deal" ?

    As for John Howard; penalty rates were removed from the IR laws under the workchoices legislation. End result being workers getting ripped off.

    http://www.fsunion.org.au/campaigns/yourrightsatwork_campaign2005/news/1144817912_13334.html

    Bakers Delight Workers Lose Sick Leave, Annual Leave And Penalty Rates 12 April 2006

    A newspaper report in March showed that young workers at Bakers Delight outlets in regional Victoria were losing their paid sick leave and annual leave entitlements for as little as 75 cents an hour.
    Commenting on the report, ACTU Secretary Greg Combet said:

    "These Bakers Delight workers are getting a raw deal and workers could expect worse under new WorkChoices laws, effective later this month.

    The Government's new work laws effectively give a green light to employers who want to remove basic conditions.

    These workers are being put onto an employment contract that trades away their entitlement to paid sick leave and four weeks paid annual leave.

    It also removes their entitlement to penalty rates for working nights, weekends and public holidays - instead offering a flat hourly rate for working until 10pm at night or on weekends and public holidays.

    A 16 year old employee who works at this Bakers' Delight outlet would receive only $8.13 an hour for working on a Saturday, a Sunday or a public holiday.

    Under the award, they should be paid more than twice this amount for working on a public holiday - $17.88 an hour -- and $6 an hour more for working on a Sunday.

    The Bakers' Delight rosters can also be changed with a day's notice, even though the current award requires workers be given 14 days notice.

    Unions warned that young people and other vulnerable workers would lose out under the Howard Government's IR laws and this shows that we were right. People are already starting to be worse off."
     
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