Financial Independence (Home Ownership, Super, Long Retirement) not possible for wage earners: What do we need and how do we get it?

[qldfrog]

There in lies the solution
More people to spread the costs
Many cultures have done it for years
Asian, Indian , Greek and many more

Investment groups .
Just as business has partners so to can the business of home ownership have partnerships.

Husband and Wife are one of the best and most common!!

And i believe a related point should be added in you list:
We westerner ask for bank loan, buy individual houses etc.
Individuals against the world, the state
But a Chinese for example will often open a business with a family loan, win win with no tax involved, better understanding if any required freeze of reimbursement and lower risks for lender.
Not to mention networking from suppliers, workforce, etc
Community whatever it is can be critical

 

[Value Hunter]

Wages have never been so high

Absolutely false when you are talking about wages in real terms. Ever since President Nikson in the U.S. closed the gold window in 1971 real wages for the bottom 80% have fallen when measured properly for example compared to ounces of gold or house prices etc.

Fiat currency and central banking are the diseases crippling us all. Standards of living won't recover until we return to a sound money system (e.g. gold standards, bitcoin standard, etc).

 

[Value Collector]

Absolutely false when you are talking about wages in real terms. Ever since President Nikson in the U.S. closed the gold window in 1971 real wages for the bottom 80% have fallen when measured properly for example compared to ounces of gold or house prices etc.

Fiat currency and central banking are the diseases crippling us all. Standards of living won't recover until we return to a sound money system (e.g. gold standards, bitcoin standard, etc).

It’s kinda cherry picking to only compare it gold or houses prices, though.

If you look at what you could buy when Nikson was president vs now I think you would be surprised. Sure some things are more expensive, but in a lot of cases things are so much cheaper, or didn’t even exist, or are heaps better and more complex now.

For example, how much would you have had to spend to have a mobile phone with unlimited talk time in the 1970’s, now we all have that for like $30 a month. Houses have all sort of new features as standard, cars are not really comparable.

 

[Value Hunter]

It’s kinda cherry picking to only compare it gold or houses prices, though.

If you look at what you could buy when Nikson was president vs now I think you would be surprised. Sure some things are more expensive, but in a lot of cases things are so much cheaper, or didn’t even exist, or are heaps better and more complex now.

For example, how much would you have had to spend to have a mobile phone with unlimited talk time in the 1970’s, now we all have that for like $30 a month. Houses have all sort of new features as standard, cars are not really comparable.

Who cares if its cheaper to buy useless crap you don't need.

The fact is in the 1960s a man working in the factory or construction could afford to support a family of 4 or 5 (including buying a house and taking annual vacations) on a single income and pay off their mortgage in 15 - 20 years and have a comfortable retirement. That is basically gone now.

The bottom 80% of people in countries like Australia, USA, etc are struggling these days.

Even if you could make the argument that new housing (the building only) when adjusted for the modern amenities has not gone up in real terms it does not matter anyway because the price of land has gone through the roof due to monetary debasement. And the costs of essentials like electricity, meat, vegetables, etc has gone through the roof.

Again gold and Bitcoin are real money. Fiat is monopoly money, eventually it will be worthless. If you look at how many ounces of gold a workers annual wages could purchase in 1971 compared to today the decline is shocking. If they were paid in gold coins instead (or at the very least a full gold backed currency redeemable in physical gold) then there wages would not have lost purchasing power.

In 1971 before the August announcement of the closing of the gold window an ounce of gold was $35 USD per troy ounce. Today it sits at $2651 USD per troy ounce. In 1971 the AUD was around $0.88 USD meaning at $35 per ounce USD the gold price in AUD was $39.77 lets just call it $40. Today it sits just shy of $4400 AUD per ounce. Average wage in Australia was around $4400 AUD per annum in 1971 (based on average weekly earnings). So in 1971 in Australia 1 years wages was equivalent to 110 troy ounces of gold. Today an average wage (again based on average weekly earnings) sits at around $104,000 AUD which at the current gold price equates to around 23.65 ounces of gold. Lets round that to 24 ounces. So your wages in Australia went from 110 ounces of gold per annum in 1971 to 24 ounces of gold currently and you are trying to make the argument people's purchasing power has risen?

Its not cherry picking. Gold is real money and therefore the appropriate measuring stick to compare all other things to. Fiat is monopoly money.

 

[Value Collector]

Who cares if its cheaper to buy useless crap you don't need.

The fact is in the 1960s a man working in the factory or construction could afford to support a family of 4 or 5 (including buying a house and taking annual vacations) on a single income and pay off their mortgage in 15 - 20 years and have a comfortable retirement. That is basically gone now.

The bottom 80% of people in countries like Australia, USA, etc are struggling these days.

Even if you could make the argument that new housing (the building only) when adjusted for the modern amenities has not gone up in real terms it does not matter anyway because the price of land has gone through the roof due to monetary debasement. And the costs of essentials like electricity, meat, vegetables, etc has gone through the roof.

Again gold and Bitcoin are real money. Fiat is monopoly money, eventually it will be worthless. If you look at how many ounces of gold a workers annual wages could purchase in 1971 compared to today the decline is shocking. If they were paid in gold coins instead (or at the very least a full gold backed currency redeemable in physical gold) then there wages would not have lost purchasing power.

In 1971 before the August announcement of the closing of the gold window an ounce of gold was $35 USD per troy ounce. Today it sits at $2651 USD per troy ounce. In 1971 the AUD was around $0.88 USD meaning at $35 per ounce USD the gold price in AUD was $39.77 lets just call it $40. Today it sits just shy of $4400 AUD per ounce. Average wage in Australia was around $4400 AUD per annum in 1971 (based on average weekly earnings). So in 1971 in Australia 1 years wages was equivalent to 110 troy ounces of gold. Today an average wage (again based on average weekly earnings) sits at around $104,000 AUD which at the current gold price equates to around 23.65 ounces of gold. Lets round that to 24 ounces. So your wages in Australia went from 110 ounces of gold per annum in 1971 to 24 ounces of gold currently and you are trying to make the argument people's purchasing power has risen?

Its not cherry picking. Gold is real money and therefore the appropriate measuring stick to compare all other things to. Fiat is monopoly money.

Yeah, but again you are just naming a few things that were cheaper because of things like a smaller population, and simpler housing etc, not whether the total wages now can buy more total products and services, that guy from the 1960’s may not have had running hot water in his house or a flushing toilet,

If it was useless crap people wouldn’t buy it, it used to cost an arm and a leg to make a phone call from Brisbane to Sydney, now you can video call for basically free, every house has Indoor plumbing and many have solar power etc, air conditioning in the home wasn’t really a thing in the 1960’s. The list goes on and on

———————-
Sounds Awesome…. Not. You are looking back with rose coloured glasses. You would expect houses to be cheaper without indoor plumbing.

 

[Value Hunter]

Even if you could make the argument that new housing (the building only) when adjusted for the modern amenities has not gone up in real terms it does not matter anyway because the price of land has gone through the roof due to monetary debasement.

Convenient how you completely glossed over that and also the fact that it now takes two wage earners to support a family instead of one.

Even as late as the early 1990s I know people personally who bought houses on a single income in the inner west of Sydney less than 10km from the CBD on the income from an entry level job (e.g. shop assistant, etc). How many people can do that today!!

 

[macca]

Convenient how you completely glossed over that and also the fact that it now takes two wage earners to support a family instead of one.

Even as late as the early 1990s I know people personally who bought houses on a single income in the inner west of Sydney less than 10km from the CBD on the income from an entry level job (e.g. shop assistant, etc). How many people can do that today!!

Back then our population growth was quite sedate, we did not need to build a new city ever year to accommodate the flood of "students"

You could go for a drive and find vacant blocks of land scattered around the place which meant no pressure.

Incompetent Govt is the cause of the problem and our younger generations are the victims

 

[macca]

Yeah, but again you are just naming a few things that were cheaper because of things like a smaller population, and simpler housing etc, not whether the total wages now can buy more total products and services, that guy from the 1960’s may not have had running hot water in his house or a flushing toilet,

If it was useless crap people wouldn’t buy it, it used to cost an arm and a leg to make a phone call from Brisbane to Sydney, now you can video call for basically free, every house has Indoor plumbing and many have solar power etc, air conditioning in the home wasn’t really a thing in the 1960’s. The list goes on and on

———————-
Sounds Awesome…. Not. You are looking back with rose coloured glasses. You would expect houses to be cheaper without indoor plumbing.

View attachment 190888

We had no running hot water in our New house built in 1960, boil the kettle to wash the dishes in the kitchen sink

Plenty of 2 bedroom houses with 3 or 4 kids all in bedroom or the oldest boy sleeping on the verandah.

 

[farmerge]

We had no running hot water in our New house built in 1960, boil the kettle to wash the dishes in the kitchen sink

Plenty of 2 bedroom houses with 3 or 4 kids all in bedroom or the oldest boy sleeping on the verandah.

Ah the good old days.
There is a lot to be said about those days.
Didn't have to lock the house up if you went out, neighbours were friendly and about all the time.
Not like today, we lock-up tighter than Fort Knox and padlock the 2 entrances to the farm.
Plenty of light fingers about taking what they consider is theirs.
My brother and I had a double bunk in a sleepout until our parents had another bedroom added in 1963.

 

[Joe90]

 

[divs4ever]

you can mock , but even on the fringe of a capital city , there were families in small cottages ( with three or more children )

some near me didn't even have rear walls because they backed onto bush-land

very modest a rain-water tank ( no town-water ) most had electricity but no gas , outside toilet

not as bad as some homeless encampments but nothing like a palace( stable ) either

 

[wayneL]

you can mock , but even on the fringe of a capital city , there were families in small cottages ( with three or more children )

some near me didn't even have rear walls because they backed onto bush-land

very modest a rain-water tank ( no town-water ) most had electricity but no gas , outside toilet

not as bad as some homeless encampments but nothing like a palace( stable ) either

Luxury...

 

[Joe90]

you can mock , but even on the fringe of a capital city , there were families in small cottages ( with three or more children )

some near me didn't even have rear walls because they backed onto bush-land

very modest a rain-water tank ( no town-water ) most had electricity but no gas , outside toilet

not as bad as some homeless encampments but nothing like a palace( stable ) either

Who's mocking, I was taking the piss at my own upbringing. I grew up in rural NZ in the 50's and 60's in a cottage exactly as described above, there was no cash surplus available for luxuries in my family back then. Oh not quite, we had a back door.

 

[Value Collector]

We had no running hot water in our New house built in 1960, boil the kettle to wash the dishes in the kitchen sink

Plenty of 2 bedroom houses with 3 or 4 kids all in bedroom or the oldest boy sleeping on the verandah.

Yep, so part of the reason the cost of living has gone up is because of the price of land caused by increased population, but also just the sheer increase of the goods and services we now take for granted has risen.

Did you know that most food items are now 10 times cheaper than they were in 1960, if you compare it to how many minutes the average wage took to pay for it.

I think value hunter suffers from life dysmorphia.

 

[tech/a]

Yet—- here we are
We all live in the now
There are 1000s of people who lived those times and financially
They are stuffed. Same opportunities.Yet there are some who
Have thrived and are financially secure.

Those born in the last 10 years will have to live in their now.
There will be opportunities that we the baby boomers won’t even recognise.
Some will thrive and others won’t.

I’d like this thread to live in the now! Ideas and opportunities discussed to help
Those living their now!
My view is those who achieve their financial independence use their income very
Differently than those who don’t.

 

[Value Collector]

Convenient how you completely glossed over that and also the fact that it now takes two wage earners to support a family instead of one.

Even as late as the early 1990s I know people personally who bought houses on a single income in the inner west of Sydney less than 10km from the CBD on the income from an entry level job (e.g. shop assistant, etc). How many people can do that today!!

There are still heaps of single income families out there.

And I am sure if you lived like the people did in the 1960’s you could still live on one wage easily.

What you have noticed is called “life style creep”, where as people on average earn more they consume more, and then that new level of consumption becomes the expectation.

It was never going to be the case that as two incomes became the norm that everyone just saved the second income, of course life style increased to soak up both wages,

 

[Value Collector]

Yet—- here we are
We all live in the now
There are 1000s of people who lived those times and financially
They are stuffed. Same opportunities.Yet there are some who
Have thrived and are financially secure.

Those born in the last 10 years will have to live in their now.
There will be opportunities that we the baby boomers won’t even recognise.
Some will thrive and others won’t.

I’d like this thread to live in the now! Ideas and opportunities discussed to help
Those living their now!
My view is those who achieve their financial independence use their income very
Differently than those who don’t.

It’s simple spend less than you earn and invest the difference and you will do great.

Or, because I know the idea of “spending less than you earn” triggers some people including your self, for you I will change the wording, simply “Earn more than you spend and invest the difference”

(Whether you focus on reducing spending, increasing earnings or both, the main point is simply, generate some savings and put it to work in the capital market, and let it compound. So that you are earning from both the labour market and the capital market combined)

 

[qldfrog]

A bit like weight management IMHO, in and out have to balance:
Debt for a return is leverage, debt for no return is a trap.
I am nearly sure the financially independents now in their majority did not bought cars, jetski,plasma TV (remember) in their 20's or even 30s and their first home or unit were modest and required endless nights of TLC.
Personal loans should be a no go as are credit card debts.
The above points are still valid NOW.
I would also add getting out of wage earning asap, joining a partner to split cost and enhance borrowing capacity.
Then the next step is obviously investment, but first gather the ability to get the initial $ and then dare.
Luck is important but no luck will fall on you if you do not try, and try again..

 

[Dona Ferentes]

some are more entrepreneurial.
Some manage money better.
Some are more patient.
Some will inherit from the earlier generations.

once committed to an asset, as in owning it, different rules apply.

Leasing for status is a slippery slope

 

[macca]

Yet—- here we are
We all live in the now
There are 1000s of people who lived those times and financially
They are stuffed. Same opportunities.Yet there are some who
Have thrived and are financially secure.

Those born in the last 10 years will have to live in their now.
There will be opportunities that we the baby boomers won’t even recognise.
Some will thrive and others won’t.

I’d like this thread to live in the now! Ideas and opportunities discussed to help
Those living their now!
My view is those who achieve their financial independence use their income very
Differently than those who don’t.

The lifestyle choices made by those who have accumulated assets are much the same as the younger generation face now.

You can only spend it once still applies,
if you borrow to spend then you will have to pay it back from future earnings still applies
Buy needs not wants still applies
Have two jobs still works
live in modest housing still works
drive a cheap reliable car that will do the job
Instead of an OS holiday twice a year buy some shares with the money
invest in your skills set for better income for the same hours
Sell garage sale stuff on ebay new opportunity
be an influencer ads and freebies new opportunity
be a part time carer for NDIS new opportunity

Heaps of things that are new in todays world that I believe I could make money from if young and aware of todays trends (which I am not )