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Electric cars?

Discussion in 'Business, Investment and Economics' started by tothemax6, Jan 22, 2011.

Would you buy an electric car?

  1. Already own one

    2 vote(s)
    2.1%
  2. Yes - would definitely buy

    19 vote(s)
    20.0%
  3. Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    44 vote(s)
    46.3%
  4. Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    21 vote(s)
    22.1%
  5. No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    6 vote(s)
    6.3%
  6. No - would never buy one

    5 vote(s)
    5.3%
Multiple votes are allowed.
  1. Value Collector

    Value Collector Have courage, and be kind.

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    check this out.

    imagine process like this that can capture carbon directly from the air, and then combine them with hydrogen to produce what ever fuels/plastic we like.

    of course I still think our road transport is best suited to electric/battery vehicles.

    but jet fuels and other things that aren’t suited to battery tech could be using synthetic fuels in the future.

    plants producing these types of fuels would be perfect for soaking up peak renewables supply, and also make great investments for both Bond and equity investors.




    P.S I love love Gates is willing to tackle problems like this, No fortune is being spent better in my opinion than The Gates/buffet fortunes, both are amazing men.
     
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  2. Value Collector

    Value Collector Have courage, and be kind.

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    mankind’s story is truly remarkable, but yes I think the only way forward is for us to eventually get to a point where 100% of our energy is derived through either renewables or nuclear.

    there is simply no other way that is sustainable longterm so we have to get there eventually.

    Also, big investments such as this fit very well into our capitalistic model.

    each household can invest in their own solar panels/batteries for their own usage or resale.

    and the energy companies can buy the excess + invest in their own large scale renewable electrical production to supply industry and the synthetic fuel market (Eg jets).
     
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  3. qldfrog

    qldfrog

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    About nuclear, please please be careful of what you wish with nuclear
    Nuclear and sustainable ate absolutely incompatible.
    only the fact we do not have nuclear here can make it attraction, fusion, thorium yes
    But fission uranium:
    No thanks
     
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  4. Smurf1976

    Smurf1976

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    Very true.

    There's arguably a case for continuing to operate those facilities already built so long as they remain safe and can be operated reasonably economically. That is, don't set any specific closure date based on regulation etc.

    Whatever those plants generate, in the vast majority of cases is directly avoiding the use of coal, gas or in some cases oil and from an economic perspective, both financially and in terms of materials etc, the costs have mostly already been incurred during construction.

    Building any more of them is however an entirely different matter and makes far less sense in my view. Only real exception is if you're on a densely populated island which has no credible earthquake risk is too far from any larger land mass to transmit power from there. That's not most places. :2twocents
     
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  5. Smurf1976

    Smurf1976

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    Agreed definitely.

    To avoid confusion though I'll add that the term "synthetic" has a different meaning in the present day to the one it may have in the future that you're referring to.

    Any "synthetic" oil that you can buy today is either produced using natural gas as the feedstock or is produced using an assortment of chemicals which, whilst they are not oil, were ultimately obtained from crude oil via various processes.

    Mineral oil in the context of lubricants etc = simply refined from crude oil and some additives put in.

    Synthetic oil = "built" from various chemical components but the ultimate origin of those components, via some complex chemistry, is still crude oil and/or natural gas.

    There's some fancy tricks possible with all this stuff. I'm no industrial chemist but among others I'm aware of:

    It's entirely possible to make ethanol, that is alcohol of the kind suitable for drinking, from petroleum. It's not how spirits or beer are actually made but it can be done.

    Or for a practical one, the entire gas supply for Hobart during the period 1964 - 1978 was obtained from a plant cracking naphtha into gas. Naphtha is a clear flammable liquid derived from crude oil. For anyone familiar - the plant was located roughly where the now demolished cool store was later built, diagonally opposite the concert hall which didn't exist at the time. The plant was by no means unique, plenty of such things existed at the time in various parts of the world. :2twocents
     
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  6. qldfrog

    qldfrog

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  7. sptrawler

    sptrawler

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  8. Value Collector

    Value Collector Have courage, and be kind.

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    So it is basically a hydrogen fuel cell/ Battery Hybrid, I honestly don’t get it.

    I mean, basically what it comes down to is that instead of putting a larger battery into the car, you put a smaller battery in and use some of that battery space to put in a hydrogen tank and a fuel cell.

    But, the battery driving is going to be so much cheaper than the hydrogen powered driving you will be gritting your teeth every time the hydrogen power comes on.

    After driving my Tesla round for a few months now, including interstate trips I would hate to have a hydrogen tank.

    Battery power is just so much more convenient, and easier to install charging stations than hydrogen stations.

    the only winners of hydrogen are the oil companies in my opinion, ofcourse they would rather sell me hydrogen than have me charge in my garage using my own solar, but it’s better for me to avoid hydrogen.
     
  9. sptrawler

    sptrawler

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    I think hydrogen is a long, long, long way off, but the technology will be developed.
    At the moment BEV's are definitely leading the march and in reality will help stabilise the electricity grid.

    https://reneweconomy.com.au/renewab...per-australia-could-lead-global-market-95168/

    The design of batteries needs to improve and the extraction of hydrogen does also, I think there will be massive steps forward in both mediums.
     
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
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  10. Value Collector

    Value Collector Have courage, and be kind.

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    yeah, there with definitely be ways to use hydrogen in the future, especially in creating synthetic jets fuels etc.

    I am just not convinced it is the best way forward for our daily commuter cars.
     
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  11. Smurf1976

    Smurf1976

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    Getting it to work as such isn't too difficult. Quite a few things from go-carts to full size cars were converted to hydrogen as part of some research work in Tasmania about a decade ago indeed one was even entered in a car race. Not that anyone expected the hydrogen powered Corolla to win the race but it was all about proving what could be done.

    Doing it in a manner that's energy efficient, however, well that's far more difficult than just making it work as such. It's dead easy so long as you can live with 15% efficiency, much harder if you want something better. :2twocents
     
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  12. sptrawler

    sptrawler

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  13. orr

    orr

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    Anyone in here keeping a close eye out for the Tesla battery investor spruke? maybe a month or two..
    Can anyone give me any atuo Mfg company that is ahead or close and i mean less than 4-5yrs behind what TSLA's is doing at price and preformance?
    And yes trawler those companies are being bought . Hybar and Maxwell. Should I tell you by who?
    Currently we're at circa 250wh/kg with lithium. 400wh/kg is a speacial threshold, but not for cars...
     
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  14. ducati916

    ducati916

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    Batteries and renewables in general are made of earthly materials that have to be mined, transported, refined, and turned into finished products. The Tesla battery weighs about a thousand pounds and requires 500,000 pounds of raw material to be unearthed to build it.

    Tesla doesn’t own the battery cell technology (AA-looking battery units) that goes into its batteries; that belongs to its partner, Japanese conglomerate Panasonic. Tesla designed the battery pack (the enclosure that houses the battery cells) and the battery management system controller (computer) that routes and manages electricity flow and the microclimate of the battery cells.

    The battery is a key technology for Tesla, but as of right now Panasonic is in control of a big part of it. Tesla, which is vertically integrated, may eventually increase its control over its battery technology. The company’s purchase of Maxwell Technologies, which has a battery technology that may significantly lower the cost of cell manufacturing, is the first move toward independence from Panasonic.

    jog on
    duc
     
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  15. Value Collector

    Value Collector Have courage, and be kind.

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    And then those “finished products” will be recycled and turned into new “finished products” at the end of their life.

    So the materials that are used to create and use renewable energy will have a much longer life than the materials such as coal and oil that get mined and used once.

    Also, it’s not like regular cars don’t use mined materials for their power trains.
     
  16. qldfrog

    qldfrog

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    But those “finished products” ARE recycled and turned into new “finished products” ALREADY..
    Lower upfront cost as iron is already well recycled..
    But why spoil a good story with facts
    EV are great but so far, not yet "green" in mainland Australia.easy to compute yourself..if you dare
    Let's stop ideology and look at facts or figures however inconvenient it might be for egos
    Tesla are the beemers of the leftists with a guilt complex.But there is no shame in liking and having good engineered toys if you can afford it, EV or not.
    So bring EV, we need an economic stimulus and build new plants and factory, infrastructure and mines, etc etc.
    The whole EU is actually launching an economic stimulus..to save the planet
     
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  17. Value Collector

    Value Collector Have courage, and be kind.

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    not sure what you are on about.

    My point is simply that the mined materials that are used to make batteries and renewable energy can be recycled and used multiple times, potentially staying in use for 100 years or more, so it would be unfair to account for things as if they will be made from virgin materials forever.

    Yes, Iron is recycled as well, but that doesn’t detract from The EV and renewable energy story.
     
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  18. sptrawler

    sptrawler

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    You do make it sound like perpetual motion, make a battery, then just keep re using it forever, nothing is lost just recycled. Rinse wash repeat, I dont think so. Lol
     
  19. Value Collector

    Value Collector Have courage, and be kind.

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    No, I didn't say nothing is lost.

    Like any recycling there will be small losses, recycling 100 batteries will probably reclaim enough material to make 99 new ones, hence the material that is mined will be in use for decades if not 100's of years given the batteries will probably be in use for 15+ years at a time before they need to be recycled.

    But some people try and make out that we will be sending these batteries full of valuable metals to landfill at the end of their life, I am simply pointing out that those metals will be recycled into new products.

    So the "Carbon Accountants" out there that want to make to make out that mining battery materials removes all benefits of EV's and Renewable energy are simply wrong.
     
  20. sptrawler

    sptrawler

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    99% recovery rate, I would like to see the actual evidence of that, if it's true that is amazing IMO
     
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