Australian (ASX) Stock Market Forum

Electric cars?

Would you buy an electric car?

  • Already own one

    Votes: 7 4.0%
  • Yes - would definitely buy

    Votes: 43 24.3%
  • Yes - preferred over petrol car if price/power/convenience similar

    Votes: 73 41.2%
  • Maybe - preference for neither, only concerned with costs etc

    Votes: 33 18.6%
  • No - prefer petrol car even if electric car has same price, power and convenience

    Votes: 19 10.7%
  • No - would never buy one

    Votes: 12 6.8%

  • Total voters
    177
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The key is owner control,even with Windows systems.
You need to be able to veto upgrades etc.
That windows upgrades might disable your custom ATO driver, in the same way as the Tesla one might forget the added module "hopping kangoroo avoidance system".
No one will know the difference.. for a while
But the usual attitude is
Trust us manufacturers, we know better....
My comment turned out to be, well, alarmingly timed.....

At 11:35am on Wednesday (eastern states time) AEMO implemented a change to NEMDE (National Electricity Market Dispatch Engine) which in simple terms is the software controlling the physical dispatch of power generation into grid.

Anyone like to guess what happened?

Well it resulted in about 16% of all generation running at 11:35 promptly shutting down with impacts across all 5 NEM states. It being the wind and solar farms which were affected.

1660148807715.png

100839MARKET SYSTEMS10/08/2022 01:11:35 PM

FAILURE AFFECTING MARKET DISPATCH AND PRICING​

FAILURE AFFECTING MARKET DISPATCH AND PRICING

Today from trading interval 1135 hrs, AEMO observed a large change in FCAS requirements for all fast and slow contingency ancillary services. This also resulted in violation of those FCAS constraints and market price caps for those services in all regions and for energy in Tasmania.

AEMO has reversed an approved change to NEMDE that was implemented from trading interval 1135 hrs. Dispatch appears to be operating correctly from trading intervals 1240 hrs

AEMO is continuing to investigate.
Emphasis in orange is mine.

Noting that it's pure coincidence that the example I've used here is an electrical one. It would be equally relevant if it were anything else.

I've nothing against those who code software for a living, it's nothing personal, and nor is my example intended as criticism of AEMO. It's just an example, it could've been any industry anywhere.

It's just a reality that I've personally seen a few too many real world near misses caused by software flaws to be comfortable with the idea that someone's remotely tinkering with a car that I'm driving, potentially whilst I'm driving it. :2twocents
 
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My comment turned out to be, well, alarmingly timed.....

At 11:35am on Wednesday (eastern states time) AEMO implemented a change to NEMDE (National Electricity Market Dispatch Engine) which in simple terms is the software controlling the physical dispatch of power generation into grid.

Anyone like to guess what happened?

Well it resulted in about 16% of all generation running at 11:35 promptly shutting down with impacts across all 5 NEM states. It being the wind and solar farms which were affected.

View attachment 145203


Emphasis in orange is mine.

Noting that it's pure coincidence that the example I've used here is an electrical one. It would be equally relevant if it were anything else.

I've nothing against those who code software for a living, it's nothing personal, and nor is my example intended as criticism of AEMO. It's just an example, it could've been any industry anywhere.

It's just a reality that I've personally seen a few too many real world near misses caused by software flaws to be comfortable with the idea that someone's remotely tinkering with a car that I'm driving, potentially whilst I'm driving it. :2twocents
I have spent my career in software: applying a patch at 11am midweek is absolutely crazy.
Consider timing bloody amateurs:
Not done start of day so less time to fix before end of day..and we still work in 8 to 5..if that team does not, the teams for other potentially impacted components do or the right contacts you need to call..
not a 17y old in Bangalore who has no clues as to what your company does except a 2 liners poping on the screen when you call support.
Even worse: in energy industry, peak solar is around lunchtime...
Unless the monday patch just crashed during and due to peak? We will never know
Anyway, same as comsec doing patching on friday night..you mean what? Trading on asx is closed so what is your problem?
Nyse? What's that?
Etc etc.the timing of patching / upgrades is a great revelator of incompetence in the IT world
I had to fight quite a few battles on behalf of my clients here in the mines...
 
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I have spent my career in software: applying a patch at 11am midweek is absolutely crazy.
Consider timing bloody amateurs:
Not done start of day so less time to fix before end of day..and we still work in 8 to 5..if that team does not, the teams for other potentially impacted components do or the right contacts you need to call..
not a 17y old in Bangalore who has no clues as to what your company does except a 2 liners poping on the screen when you call support.
Even worse: in energy industry, peak solar is around lunchtime...
Unless the monday patch just crashed during and due to peak? We will never know
Anyway, same as comsec doing patching on friday night..you mean what? Trading on asx is closed so what is your problem?
Nyse? What's that?
Etc etc.the timing of patching / upgrades is a great revelator of incompetence in the IT world
I had to fight quite a few battles on behalf of my clients here in the mines...
All that to say..no thanks, i want to be in control of at least the timing of upgrades
 

JohnDe

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My comment turned out to be, well, alarmingly timed.....

At 11:35am on Wednesday (eastern states time) AEMO implemented a change to NEMDE (National Electricity Market Dispatch Engine) which in simple terms is the software controlling the physical dispatch of power generation into grid.

Anyone like to guess what happened?

Well it resulted in about 16% of all generation running at 11:35 promptly shutting down with impacts across all 5 NEM states. It being the wind and solar farms which were affected.

View attachment 145203


Emphasis in orange is mine.

Noting that it's pure coincidence that the example I've used here is an electrical one. It would be equally relevant if it were anything else.

I've nothing against those who code software for a living, it's nothing personal, and nor is my example intended as criticism of AEMO. It's just an example, it could've been any industry anywhere.

It's just a reality that I've personally seen a few too many real world near misses caused by software flaws to be comfortable with the idea that someone's remotely tinkering with a car that I'm driving, potentially whilst I'm driving it. :2twocents

I'm not sure how your previous comment about EV OTA updates has anything to do with AEMO.

An update for an EV is not compulsory to accept and download. Taking Tesla as an example, there are millions of their models on the road and hundreds of thousands of Beta drivers. Some updates are developed to fix a problem, some to improve efficiency, safety and security. Before an update is sent out to the masses it is tested inhouse and then by the Beta drivers. Yes things can sometimes go wrong, but the chances are extremely low, and there are back up systems in place.

AEMO does not have Beta testers or the budget to employ a team of software engineers as large as Tesla's.

Don't worry too much about OTA updates, it has been around for years. If you don't trust it no one is making you change. Keep the Nokia phone and the pre-2022 vehicle, both will not be capable of OTA updates.

In 2004 I purchased a new Ford Territory, a great car but with some flaws. One issue required me to book the car in and leave it for the day so that the dealer could install software update for a known issue. That was the first and last update, if I wanted the fuel and power improvements, and the gear change adjustments that the latest model had I needed to trade in my 2 year old Territory and purchase the new model.

My current Tesla has had several updates, all downloaded and installed at my choosing of time and location, which include but not limited to:

  • Blind Spot Camera
  • Traffic Along Route
  • Disable Sentry Sounds
  • Driver Profiles
  • Auto Rear Climate Controls
  • Additional Bottom Bar Customization
  • Regenerative Braking
  • Turn Signal
  • Cabin Camera
  • Speed Assist
  • Online Radio
  • Sentry Mode
  • Seat Belt System Enhancement
  • Tesla Adaptive Suspension
  • HomeLink Buttons
  • Battery at Arrival
  • Green Traffic Light Chime
  • Bluetooth Menu
  • Tire Configuration
  • Improvements to Energy Prediction
  • Autopilot Maximum Speed
  • Automatic Supercharger Rerouting
  • Driver Profiles
  • Regenerative Braking
  • Navigation Energy Prediction
  • TeslaMic
  • Powered Trunk
  • Updated Visualizations
  • Regeneration / Acceleration Line
  • Heat Pump & Low Voltage Battery
  • Full Self-Driving (Beta) Suspension
  • FSD Beta v10.13 Release Notes
  • Improved Vehicle Path
  • Additional Bottom Bar Customization
  • Disney+
  • Navigation Routes
  • Child Lock
  • Charging Time Estimation
  • Additional Mobile App Controls
  • Tesla Tutorials
  • Rear Display Improvements
  • New Language Support
  • Browser Improvements
  • Compass / Always North
  • Superchargers List
  • Updated Service Mode
  • Autopilot Maximum Speed
 
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This may put a cat among the pigeons.
Who said Trumps tariffs on China didn't work, ah the media that's right, also it seems annoying the EU allies is o.k now.:roflmao:
BRUSSELS (Reuters) -The European Union and South Korea have raised concerns about proposed U.S. tax credits for purchases of electric vehicles, saying they may discriminate against foreign-made vehicles and breach World Trade Organization (WTO) rules.

Under the $430 billion climate and energy bill passed by the U.S. Senate on Sunday, Congress would lift the cap on the existing $7,500 tax credit for electric vehicle purchasers but impose restrictions, including barring vehicles not assembled in North America from receiving the credit.


The ban on tax credits for vehicles assembled outside of North America would take effect as soon as President Joe Biden signs the legislation.

The proposed legislation also includes provisions aimed at preventing use of battery components or critical minerals derived from China.

"We think it's discriminatory, that it is discriminating against foreign producers in relation to U.S. producers," said European Commission spokesperson Miriam Garcia Ferrer. "Of course this would mean that it would be incompatible with the WTO."
 

JohnDe

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An honest review & description -

Tesla Model S Plaid: The Good, The Bad And The Gimmicks

With three motors, over 1,000bhp and a 2 second 0-60 time, the Model S Plaid is easily Tesla's maddest creation to date: a four door family car can put even the rarest and most expensive hypercars to shame in a straight line. But do you really need all that? Does the Plaid do enough to differentiate itself from the already very fast Model S Long Range? Jack and Ricky investigate.


 
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I'm not sure how your previous comment about EV OTA updates has anything to do with AEMO.
It’s simply a very real example of why I don’t trust software updates period.

I’ve seen far too many examples where it’s clear that testing wasn’t up to scratch and problems were discovered when it was implemented.

That approach isn’t one that fits well with vehicles for obvious reasons.

That the example happens to be electrical related is purely coincidental, my concern being about software testing in general not being robust.
 
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JohnDe

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First there was constant talk from the naysayers that EVs will never go mainstream in the next 10 or 15 years, now we're coming to an issue that brings us to battery shortages slowing EV production. What next?

Could the EV boom run out of juice before it really gets going?
Quite possibly, for want of batteries

Electric vehicles (evs) seem unstoppable. Carmakers are outpledging themselves in terms of production goals. Industry analysts are struggling to keep up. Battery-powered cars could zoom from less than 10% of global vehicle sales in 2021 to 40% by 2030, according to Bloombergnef. Depending on whom you ask, that could translate to anywhere between 25m and 40m evs. They, and the tens of millions manufactured between now and then, will need plenty of batteries. Bernstein reckons that demand from evs will grow nine-fold by 2030 (see chart 1), to 3,200 gigawatt-hours (gwh). Rystad puts it at 4,000gwh.

20220820_WBC526.png

Such projections explain the frenzied activity up and down the battery value chain. The ferment stretches from the salt flats of Chile’s Atacama desert, where lithium is mined, to the plains of Hungary, where on August 12th catl of China, the world’s biggest battery-maker, announced a €7.3bn ($7.5bn) investment to build its second European “gigafactory”. It is, though, looking increasingly as though the activity is not quite frenzied enough, especially for the Western car companies that are desperate to reduce their dependence on China’s world-leading battery industry amid geopolitical tensions. Prices of battery metals have spiked (see chart 2) and are expected to push battery costs up in 2022 for the first time in more than a decade.

In June Bloombergnef cast doubt on its earlier prediction that the cost of buying and running an ev would become as cheap as a fossil-fuelled car by 2024. Even more distant targets, such as the eu’s coming ban on new sales of carbon-burning cars by 2035, may not be met. Could the ev boom run out of juice before it gets started?

Giga-ntic promises
On paper, there ought to be plenty of batteries to go around. Benchmark Minerals, a consultancy, has analysed manufacturers’ declared plans and found that, if they materialise, 282 new gigafactories should come online worldwide by 2031. That would take total global capacity to 5,800gwh. It is also a big “if”. Bernstein calculates that current and promised future supply from the six established battery-makers—byd and catl of China; lg, Samsung and sk Innovation of South Korea; and Panasonic of Japan—adds up to 1,360gwh by the end of the decade The balance would have to come from newcomers—and being a newcomer in a capital-intensive industry is never easy.

The optimistic overall capacity projections conceal other problems. Matteo Fini of s&p Global Mobility, a consultancy, notes that gigafactories take three years to build but require longer—possibly a few extra years—to manufacture at full capacity. As such, actual output by 2030 may fall short. Moreover, manufacturers’ unique technologies and specifications mean that cells from one factory are usually not interchangeable with those from another, which could create further bottlenecks.

Most troubling for Western carmakers is China’s dominance of battery-making. The country houses close to 80% of the world’s current cell-manufacturing capacity. Benchmark Minerals forecasts that China’s share will decline in the next decade or so, but only a bit—to just under 70%. By then America would be home to just 12% of global capacity, with Europe accounting for most of the rest.

Americans’ slower uptake of evs may ease the crunch for carmakers there. Deloitte, a consultancy, expects America to account for just under 5m vehicles of the 31m evs sold in 2030, compared with 15m in China and 8m in Europe. Big American carmakers already have joint ventures with the big South Korean battery producers to build domestic gigafactories. In July Ford and sk Innovation finalised a deal to build one in Tennessee and two in Kentucky, with the carmaker chipping in $6.6bn and the South Korean firm $5.5bn. The same month the Detroit giant struck a deal to import catl batteries. General Motors and lg Energy are together putting over $7bn towards three battery factories in Michigan, Ohio and Tennessee.

It is Europe’s carmakers that seem most exposed. Volkswagen, a German giant, plans to construct six gigafactories of its own by 2030. Some, such as bmw, are teaming up with the South Korean firms. Others, including Mercedes-Benz, are investing in European battery-making through a joint-venture called acc. A number of European startups, such as Northvolt of Sweden, which is backed by Volkswagen and Volvo, are also busily building capacity. Yet the continent’s car industry looks likely to remain quite reliant on Chinese manufacturers. Some of those batteries will be manufactured locally: catl’s first investment in Europe, a battery factory in Germany, is set to begin operations at the end of the year. Some packs or their components may, however, still need to be imported from China.

That is not a comfortable position to be in for European carmakers. It may become even less so if the eu introduces levies based on total lifecycle carbon emissions from vehicles, including electric ones. Northvolt’s chief executive, Peter Carlsson, reckons that proposed eu tariffs on carbon-intensive imports could add 5-8% to the cost of a Chinese battery made using dirty coal power. That could be roughly equivalent to an extra $500, give or take, per pack. Such rules would boost his firm’s prospects, since it runs on clean Nordic hydroelectricity. It would also severely limit European carmakers’ ability to source batteries from abroad.

What’s mined isn’t yours​

These manufacturing bottlenecks, serious though they are, look more manageable than those at the mining end of the battery value chain. Take nickel. Thanks to a big production increase in Indonesia, which accounts for 37% of global output of the metal, the market seems well supplied. However, Indonesian nickel is not the high-grade sort usable in batteries. It can be made into battery-compatible stuff, but that means smelting them twice, which emits three times more carbon than does refining higher-grade ores from places like Canada, New Caledonia or Russia. Those additional emissions defeat the purpose of making evs, notes Socrates Economou of Trafigura, a commodities trader. Carmakers, particularly European ones, may shun the stuff.

Cobalt has become less of a pinch point. A price spike in 2018 prompted battery-makers to develop battery chemistries that use much less of it. Planned mine expansions in the Democratic Republic of Congo (drc), home to the world’s richest cobalt deposits, and Indonesia should also tide battery-makers over until 2027. After that things get trickier. Getting more of the stuff may require manufacturers to embrace the drc’s artisanal mining, the formalisation of which has yet to bear fruit. Until it does, many Western carmakers say they would not touch the sector, where adults and many children toil in harsh conditions, with a barge pole.

Most uncertainty concerns lithium. A shortage is forcing manufacturers unable to get their hands on enough of the metal to cut production. For now consumer-electronics firms are bearing the brunt. But the smaller batteries in electronic gadgets only represent a fraction of demand. ev-makers, whose battery packs use a lot more, could be next.

By 2026 the lithium market is projected to tip back into surplus, thanks to planned new projects. However, most of these are in China and rely on lower-grade deposits which are much costlier to process than those of Australia’s hard-rock mines or Latin America’s brine ponds. Mr Economou estimates that a price of $35,000 per tonne of the battery-usable form of lithium carbonate is required to make such projects worthwhile—lower than today’s lofty levels, but three times those a year ago.

The high-grade stuff due to come from elsewhere should not be taken for granted, either. Chile’s new draft constitution, which will be put to referendum in September, proposes nationalising all natural resources. Changes to the tax regime in Australia, which already has some of the highest mining levies in the world, could deter fresh investments in “green”-metal production. In late July the boss of Albemarle, the largest publicly traded lithium producer, warned that, despite efforts to unlock more supply, carmarkers faced a fierce battle for the metal until 2030.

Because building mines takes anywhere from five to 25 years, there is little time left to get new ones up and running this decade. Big mining firms are reluctant to get into the business. Markets for green metals remain too small for mining “majors” to be worth the hassle, says the development boss at one such firm. Despite their reputation for doing business in shady places, most lack the stomach to take a gamble on countries as tricky as the drc, where it is hard to enforce contracts. Smaller miners that usually get risky projects off the ground cannot raise capital on listed markets, where investors are queasy about the mining industry, which is considered risky and, ironically, environmentally unfriendly.

The resulting dearth of capital is attracting private-equity firms—often founded by former mining executives—and manufacturers with a newfound taste for vertical integration. lg and catl are among the battery producers which have backed mining projects. Since the start of 2021 carmakers have made around 20 investments in battery-grade nickel, and five others in lithium and cobalt. Most of these projects involved Western firms. In March, for example, Volkswagen announced a joint venture with two Chinese miners to secure nickel and cobalt for its ev factories in China. Last month General Motors said it would pay Livent, a lithium producer, $200m upfront to secure lumps of the white metal. The American ev champion, Tesla, is signing deals left and right.

Mick Davis, a coal-mining veteran now at Vision Blue Resources, an investment firm that invests in minor miners, doubts that all this dealmaking will be enough to plug the funding gap. Recycling, which usually makes up a quarter of supply in mature metals markets, is not expected to help much before 2030. Tweaks to battery designs may moderate demand for the scarcest metals somewhat, but at the risk of lower battery performance. Lithium in particular will remain hard to substitute. Technologies that do away with it entirely, such as sodium-based cathodes, are a long way off.

Helter-smelter​

Even if the West’s ev industry somehow managed to secure enough metals and battery-making capacity, it would still face a giant problem in the middle of the supply chain, refining, where China enjoys near-monopolies (see chart 3). Chinese companies refine nearly 70% of the world’s lithium, 84% of its nickel and 85% of its cobalt. Trafigura forecasts that the shares for the last two of these will remain above 80% for at least the next five years. And as with battery manufacturers, Chinese refiners gobble up dirty coal-generated electricity. On top of that, according to Trafigura, both European and North American firms are also expected to rely on foreign suppliers, often Chinese ones, for at least half the capacity to convert refined ores into the materials that go into batteries.

20220820_WBC524.png
Western governments say they understand the urgent need to diversify their suppliers. Last year Joe Biden, America’s president, unveiled a blueprint to create a domestic supply chain for batteries. His mammoth infrastructure law, passed in 2021, set aside $3bn for making batteries in America. The Inflation Reduction Act, which Congress passed on August 12th, also includes sweeteners for the battery industry, contingent in part on mining, refining and manufacturing components at home or in allied countries. The eu, which created a bloc-wide battery alliance in 2017 to co-ordinate public and private efforts, says €127bn was invested last year across the supply chain, with an additional €382bn expected by 2030. Most of this is likely to land downstream, helping Europe and America to become self-sufficient in the production of finished cells by 2027.
That is something. And it remains possible that enough discoveries of new deposits, more efficient mining technology, improved battery chemistry and sacrifices on performance all combine to bring the market into balance. More likely, as Jean-François Lambert, a commodities consultant, puts it, the ev industry is “going to be living a big lie for quite some time”.

1660635517664.png
 
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For those who appreciate the irony:
Another good one is Biden green plan resulting in the diseappearance of EV $ incentives.
No ABC complaints i am sure
 

JohnDe

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qldfrog

For those who appreciate the irony:

Gas-Powered Drones Solve Electric Drones’ Greatest Weakness

Electric drones are clean, convenient, light, and have found seemingly infinite commercial and personal uses, but even the best of them can’t fly more than 45 minutes before needing a recharge. So why not use a gas-powered engine instead?
www.howtogeek.com

“There’s a reason why we don’t simply use gasoline to power our drones. Internal combustion engines require heaps of maintenance; they are dirty, complex, expensive, and much more likely to fail than an all-electric drone. This makes them less than ideal as consumer products. A battery-powered drone is more like a smartphone than an RC aircraft, and most users don’t need more than modern drones’ typical 30-minute flight times.”
 
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There has been some talk that Australia, like others, need to stimulate the uptake of EV's by providing subsidies, tax breaks, etc etc.
The problem is, often the money ends u in the hands of the manufacturers.
From Zero hedge
In a move that can only be described as inconspicuously timed, Ford announced last week that it is raising the price of its high end electric F-150 by up to $8,500; an amount that adds another $1,000 onto the new $7,500 EV subsidy that was including in President Biden's "Inflation Reduction Act". Base models are seeing their prices hiked by $7,000.

Biden signed his "flagship" act on Tuesday afternoon.
One more time, so we're clear: a $7,500 taxpayer subsidy included in an act named after reducing inflation appears to have spurred an even larger price hike on electric pickup trucks.

The electric F-150 had previously been listed for $40,000 for its base version. Now, it is priced at $47,000, according to CNN. The better equipped versions of the vehicles have similar price hikes, up to $8,500
.
Rather than come right out and state what appears to be the obvious, Ford said that the price change is due to "significant material cost increases and other factors."
Other factors like...oh, say, a $7,500 taxpayer subsidized cash grab?
The automaker has made some "small improvements" to the vehicle, however, according to the report. For example, the range for the base model of the vehicle has moved higher to 240 miles from 230 miles. The company is also adding a new feature called "Pro Trailer Hitch Assist", which reportedly helps hook the truck up to trailers.
Sounds like $7,500 worth of improvements if you ask us...
And, as the report notes, Ford isn't the only automaker raising prices. GM has also increased the price of its electric Hummer by $6.250 - a similarly inconspicuous amount.
Its highly likely that the Automakers wqould have increased the prices anyway given the inflation that has been rushing along in the US, but now it seems that the Guvmint (i.e. the taxpayers) will be paying the price increase.
Nice work if you can get it.
Expect the other manufacturers to follow suit.
Mick
 

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There has been some talk that Australia, like others, need to stimulate the uptake of EV's by providing subsidies, tax breaks, etc etc.
The problem is, often the money ends u in the hands of the manufacturers.
From Zero hedge

Its highly likely that the Automakers wqould have increased the prices anyway given the inflation that has been rushing along in the US, but now it seems that the Guvmint (i.e. the taxpayers) will be paying the price increase.
Nice work if you can get it.
Expect the other manufacturers to follow suit.
Mick
Yeah, But my favourite bread (Abbotts country grain) has gone up 40 cents recently which is pretty much the same percentage increase as the ford truck, and the bread bakers don't get an Ev subsidy.

-----------------------

I am not for big Ev subsidies, I think the Government just needs to avoid adding extra taxes while the transition is in the early stages, if anything I would support maybe an increase in the luxury vehicles tax threshold, because as I stated earlier part of the cost that increases the price of EV's is just the battery, so in some ways its a battery tax. (not to mention that the luxury vehicle tax is a silly tax anyway)

Also, Sp has convinced me that maybe incentives for increasing the charging network is the better option.
 
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Yeah, But my favourite bread (Abbotts country grain) has gone up 40 cents recently which is pretty much the same percentage increase as the ford truck, and the bread bakers don't get an Ev subsidy.

-----------------------

I am not for big Ev subsidies, I think the Government just needs to avoid adding extra taxes while the transition is in the early stages, if anything I would support maybe an increase in the luxury vehicles tax threshold, because as I stated earlier part of the cost that increases the price of EV's is just the battery, so in some ways its a battery tax. (not to mention that the luxury vehicle tax is a silly tax anyway)

Also, Sp has convinced me that may incentives for increasing the charging network is the better option.
On the subject of the network, I have received a VIN number so I thought join chargefox and get ready.;)
I looked at where I would charge if I decided to go to Albany again as I did a couple of weeks ago, the only 50Kw charger on the Albany highway for type 2 cars is at Kojonup, it has a CHAdeMO and a CCS2 port only the CHADeMO is operational.
Really I'm beginning to think I should have waited and bought the Tesla model Y, as Tesla is the only vehicle in W.A that a person can travel any distance and know there is a charging network that has reasonable coverage.
If there is any rapid up take of E.V's in W.A there will be chaos, as the wife has said, if we want to go up North or down to Albany, Esperance etc we will just have to hire an ICE car.
Which really isn't a good advertisement for E.V's, my guess is sometime next year there will be a lot of coverage on the news of violence associated with E.V charging in W.A.:2twocents
 
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I am not for big Ev subsidies, I think the Government just needs to avoid adding extra taxes while the transition is in the early stages, if anything I would support maybe an increase in the luxury vehicles tax threshold, because as I stated earlier part of the cost that increases the price of EV's is just the battery, so in some ways its a battery tax. (not to mention that the luxury vehicle tax is a silly tax anyway)

Also, Sp has convinced me that may incentives for increasing the charging network is the better option.
Why do you say the luxury tax is a silly tax anyway?
One of the reasons it was bought in was to claw some tax back from the uber wealthy who leased high value vehicles to reduce tax.
Worked ok from my perspective.
Mick
 

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Why do you say the luxury tax is a silly tax anyway?
One of the reasons it was bought in was to claw some tax back from the uber wealthy who leased high value vehicles to reduce tax.
Worked ok from my perspective.
Mick
Firstly if the car is leased for business (which is the only reason you can claim the leasing costs), the Tax increases the cost base of the car, and that cost base is written off against income as part of the lease any way, so it’s not increasing the tax revenue in that situation as you claim.

The tax was brought in to increase the cost of the expensive imported cars, to help support our local vehicle industry which no longer exists.

For me I am already paying 47% tax on my income + 10% gst on the remainder when I choose to spend it, so adding an extra 33% luxury car tax just because the cost of the battery pushed the car over the threshold seems silly.

—————————

Not to mention that the wife and I are a single car family, so we chose to spend the $80k and get a more expensive car, however a family that bought two $70k cars have $140k of cars and don’t get hit with the tax, despite having the luxury of owning $60k more worth of cars than our family.

In fact some one could have 20 x $70,000 cars and not pay any luxury vehicle tax.

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Basically I am of the opinion that it’s a silly tax, if you want to stop people leasing expensive cars, change the leasing rules, but at the moment the luxury vehicle tax does nothing to stop that anyway, because the tax is written of against income anyway.
 
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Value Collector

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Firstly if the car is leased for business (which is the only reason you can claim the leasing costs), the Tax increases the cost base of the car, and that cost base is written off against income as part of the lease any way, so it’s not increasing the tax revenue in that situation as you claim.

The tax was brought in to increase the cost of the expensive imported cars, to help support our local vehicle industry which no longer exists.

For me I am already paying 47% tax on my income + 10% gst on the remainder when I choose to spend it, so adding an extra 33% luxury car tax just because the cost of the battery pushed the car over the threshold seems silly.

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Not to mention that the wife and I are a single car family, so we chose to spend the $80k and get a more expensive car, however a family that bought two $70k cars have $140k of cars and don’t get hit with the tax, despite having the luxury of owning $60k more worth of cars than our family.

In fact some one could have 20 x $70,000 cars and not pay any luxury vehicle tax.

————————————
Basically I am of the opinion that it’s a silly tax, if you want to stop people leasing expensive cars, change the leasing rules, but at the moment the luxury vehicle tax does nothing to stop that anyway, because the tax is written of against income anyway.
Out of interest I thought I would run the numbers on how much I have to earn to buy a $100K car I intend to use privately, and how much the government takes in Taxes from me in the process of earning that money and spending it on the Car.

Firstly to have $100K to spend, I actually had to earn $188,679 and pay $88,867 to the ATO in income tax, so it looks like this.

$188,679 had to be earned

Minus $88,867 paid income Tax.

$100,000 left to spend

$ 9,090 GST Included in the $100K
$ 6,765 Luxury Vehicle Tax
$ 4,000 Stamp Duty
$ 4,000 customs import fees

So before I have even paid Rego or any of the on road costs, just to spend $100K on a new car I have had to send $112,722 to the government.

Total Tax paid to own a $100K car = $112,722, that seems like the government is getting a pretty good deal, and certainly makes the "luxury vehicle tax" look like an over the top greedy extra grap.
 
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If
Out of interest I thought I would run the numbers on how much I have to earn to buy a $100K car I intend to use privately, and how much the government takes in Taxes from me in the process of earning that money and spending it on the Car.

Firstly to have $100K to spend, I actually had to earn $188,679 and pay $88,867 to the ATO in income tax, so it looks like this.

$188,679 had to be earned

Minus $88,867 paid income Tax.

$100,000 left to spend

$ 9,090 GST Included in the $100K
$ 6,765 Luxury Vehicle Tax
$ 4,000 Stamp Duty
$ 4,000 customs import fees

So before I have even paid Rego or any of the on road costs, just to spend $100K on a new car I have had to send $112,722 to the government.

Total Tax paid to own a $100K car = $112,722, that seems like the government is getting a pretty good deal, and certainly makes the "luxury vehicle tax" look like an over the top greedy extra grap.
Well, it looks like a pretty good tax to me if you pay that much tax for the pleasure of your luxury car!
However, I would suggest your reasoning is a bit shonky.
The $88867 would have been paid whether you bought a luxury car or just kept the money, so its a bit spurious.

If you read this ruling from the ATO
So your understanding right correct in that an employer can only claim up to a maximum of the Luxury Car depreciation limit for the novated lease, even if the novated lease exceeds this amount.

When calculating the limit and deduction/depreciation amount, you must remove the Luxury Car Tax and GST paid, since you claim a credit for those on your activity statements.
You cannot get a credit of the Luxury car tax and depreciate the total amount as well on a lease.
Mick
 
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What about updates that are designed to make the car safer? It’s hard to imagine that any car that rolls of the assembly line will have perfect software that never needs updating.

Even something as simply as the automatic window wipers in my car were less than perfect on day one, but after a few updates they work great, I would have hated to be stuck with the original window wiper software that only recognised a limited about of rain patterns.

Geez, has it really come to this ?

I drove through some rain yesterday and my windscreen wipers activated with the flick of a switch. :)

Are some people so lazy or incompetent these days that they have to rely on software to do everything for them ? :rolleyes:

It's the start of the decline of the human race, mark my words. :wheniwasaboy:
 
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