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  1. #1
    Garpal Gumnut's Avatar
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    Default Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.

    I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.

    I do not have much truck with religion.

    The unpredictability of evil such as ISIS and the terrorist attacks in Canada makes me wonder.

    Is Islam evil?

    gg
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." Quote Groucho Marx
    Je suis Charlie

  2. #2

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garpal Gumnut View Post

    Is Islam evil?

    gg
    As Christopher Hitchens goes to great pains to explain, in about half an hour of your time you'll hear a utter demolition... not evil Just Stupid

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCHHfBeu0QE

  3. #3
    Garpal Gumnut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by orr View Post
    As Christopher Hitchens goes to great pains to explain, in about half an hour of your time you'll hear a utter demolition... not evil Just Stupid

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZCHHfBeu0QE
    Thanks orr,

    We tend to try and explain motives for aberrant behaviour as if it were remediable.

    My point was, evil versus just an aberration

    When do we decide something or some behaviour is not just "stupid" "random" "senseless" , but is in fact purely evil.


    gg
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." Quote Groucho Marx
    Je suis Charlie

  4. #4
    Yamaha 650 XS2 Purple XS2's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Inherently hostile to anything outside of itself:
    • fixed rules as to an Islamic legal code which renders the testimony of any non-moslem to be worthless when contradicting any moslem.
    • fixed rules as to the tax burden any non-moslem should be paying for the privilege of being tolerated in a moslem governed realm.
    • death prescribed for apostasy, which is to say if one is born into Islam, or converts to it, then to ever renounce it is to deserve death.


    Stupidity and evil can find a home anywhere, but intolerance has found a welcome home inside of Islam.
    Last edited by Purple XS2; 25th-October-2014 at 04:52 PM. Reason: spelling
    "He's better at mining investors than mining the ground;" on Alan Bond. (attribution unknown)

  5. #5

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    I think you have to ask what good has Islam done and compare that with what bad it has done.

    Bad. Corrupting young minds, enslaving generations by family pressure, coercion and intimidation to be devoted to the elders of the church and THEIR interpretations of the Koran, encouraging violence, repressing women, kidnapping and enslaving girls, shooting a young girl for speaking out against them, and the list goes on.

    Good. Charities ? Not really. The house of Saud is one of the wealthiest in the world and have they ever done anything for humanity ?

    All in all I'd have to say Islam is more bad than good and the world would be a better place without it.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirRumpole View Post
    I think you have to ask what good has Islam done .
    Islam has a pretty good take on usury... IM (humble)O.

  7. #7
    Garpal Gumnut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirRumpole View Post
    I think you have to ask what good has Islam done and compare that with what bad it has done.

    Bad. Corrupting young minds, enslaving generations by family pressure, coercion and intimidation to be devoted to the elders of the church and THEIR interpretations of the Koran, encouraging violence, repressing women, kidnapping and enslaving girls, shooting a young girl for speaking out against them, and the list goes on.

    Good. Charities ? Not really. The house of Saud is one of the wealthiest in the world and have they ever done anything for humanity ?

    All in all I'd have to say Islam is more bad than good and the world would be a better place without it.
    What I'm hearing too.

    Islam more bad than good.

    But is it Evil ?

    gg
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." Quote Groucho Marx
    Je suis Charlie

  8. #8

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Perhaps the question should be is religion inherently evil? Christianity certainly appears to be, a lot of the attitudes of Islam were formed by the actions of the original terrorists, the christian crusaders.
    "I started with nothing, and I still have most of it"
    if you choose to take this post as advice its free, and you have been overcharged.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garpal Gumnut View Post
    But is it Evil ?

    gg
    Not of itself. Indonesia and Malaysia seem to get on OK with an Islamic government.

    It's only when you get wackos in charge (like the Taliban) that it becomes evil.

  10. #10

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by SirRumpole View Post
    Not of itself. Indonesia and Malaysia seem to get on OK with an Islamic government.

    It's only when you get wackos in charge (like the Taliban) that it becomes evil.
    Malaysia is slowly sliding back into the dark ages...


    One step forward for Indonesia, one step back for Malaysia

    But now it's pursuing policies of religious discrimination as well, says Mr Chin: "Previously, they tried to regulate the body and behaviour of Muslims; now, they are trying to regulate the body and behaviour of non-Muslims too."

    He contrasts this with Indonesia, where a secular state does not impose Islamic standards on other faiths. It's one thing to fine Muslims for drinking alcohol, says Mr Chin, but now there are attempts to penalise non-Mulsims taking part in Oktoberfest in Malaysia.

    http://www.smh.com.au/comment/one-st...#ixzz3H95oisEq

  11. #11

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garpal Gumnut View Post
    I have been ruminating over Islam since 9/11.

    I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.

    I do not have much truck with religion.

    The unpredictability of evil such as ISIS and the terrorist attacks in Canada makes me wonder.

    Is Islam evil?

    gg
    Maybe sticking to your own personal experiences with Muslims is a good idea here - that having as mates who are devout Muslims but are also good people. The alternative would be: are all the 1.4 Billion or so Muslims all evil? Are some 25% of humanity just evil because their religion is inherently evil and then there's some other wackos within each communities and ethnicities. That and... should your Muslim mates really be mates still.

    A lecture I watched a while back regarding US foreign policies cite the 911 Commission Reports' conclusion as to why 911 happen, what caused those terrorists to do what they did. The findings were that those 19 terrorists hated US foreign policies in the Middle East... that they grew up in Yemen and Saudi Arabia and hate the tyrants and dictators there, hate the fact that these gov't are selling a finite national resource so cheaply to the West and kept all the money to themselves and their castles; hate that foreign powers are allowed to be based on their land.

    The Report found that those terrorists and its masterminds - Bin Laden and that other guy in Pakistan directly in charge of the plan - grew up seeing these "wrongs" being done to their land and their people, also seeing the atrocities committed by Israel on their Palestinian "brothers" and all of these they blame on the US and the West as either directly involved or done through puppets. And that is why they carried out 911.

    These are not what some left wing nuts said, these are the findings of the 911 Commission's Report. That Report also said that the vast majority of Arabs in the Middle East agree with these sentiments.

    The Report's conclusion? The Arabs are wrong, the terrorists are wrong... that US foreign policies in the Middle East was and is always for the good of the Arabs, just they're not understood to be so. Just a misunderstanding. I think it was a lecture by Chomsky... anyway, the Report recommend greater effort be done to educate and show the Arabs how noble and generous US foreign policies are to the region and the people living there.

    I think that when it come to politics, especially foreign policies, we ought to go beyond good and evil. It's sad and we shouldn't, but to take a moral stance like we only go to war for good while they go and commit evil... that kind of argument cannot be taken seriously.

    JFK's Defense Secretary - Robert McNamara - said in a very good documentary "The Fog of War" that for the things they did to Japan (the fire bombing of Tokyo among others), they would have been tried for war crimes if the US had lost.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by DB008 View Post
    Malaysia is slowly sliding back into the dark ages...
    So is Australia a great country because of its Christian moral values or it is so because of its secular democratic Constitution?

  13. #13

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by luutzu View Post
    So is Australia a great country because of its Christian moral values or it is so because of its secular democratic Constitution?
    The latter.

  14. #14
    short- to medium-term trader pixel's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garpal Gumnut View Post
    Islam more bad than good.
    But is it Evil ?
    gg
    I reckon, any monotheistic religion, in fact any mono-anything doctrine, bears an inherently evil seed.
    As soon as you put the blinkers on, declaring the followers of YOUR doctrine the only GOOD guys, and discard everyone outside your "Circle of Truth" as infidel, heathen, pagan, inferior - you are sitting at the root of all evil.

    Whether it's -
    • Yahweh, whose origin is that of the god of war,
    • Jesus, whose message of Love was subsequently perverted by sword-wielding zealots,
    • Allah, who told his one and only prophet to write down "his words" - yeah, right!
    • Joseph Smith's dreamt-up Adaptation, or
    • Ron L. Hubbard Science Fiction-ology

    the seed of evil is sown because sooner or later, a group of "true believers" will take the "Us against Them" to the next level and convert or eliminate. If there is only One God (or One Master Race), then Peace and Tolerance will go out the window at the first sign of internal trouble, and "The Others" will be blamed and persecuted for any mishap that's befallen "Us". And if "They" can't be converted, taxed, enslaved - they'll be killed as a warning example, deterring anyone of "Us" from straying from the monotheist/ racist hardline of the leaders and "Defenders of The One Faith".

    There may be a peace-loving minority in every group, but they are either small and powerless, or destined to "lose the true faith". Christians who focus on the original "Love Thy Neighbour" and "turn the other cheek" are most likely to inherit the earth - six feet under. And those, who give up the fight and preach tolerance and acceptance of other faiths, will soon become secularised and have their pacifism and tolerance turned against them by militant intolerance that invade their domains.

    PS, luutzu:
    I think that when it come to politics, especially foreign policies, we ought to go beyond good and evil. It's sad and we shouldn't, but to take a moral stance like we only go to war for good while they go and commit evil... that kind of argument cannot be taken seriously.
    +100%; call it Nationalism, Imperialism, or whatever else you like: The "Us against Them" is also alive and well with the US being Us; or "Britannia Rules the Waves"; or "Deutschland Uber Alles".
    Last edited by pixel; 25th-October-2014 at 11:07 PM.
    Artificial Intelligence is no match for Innate Stupidity.

  15. #15

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Some Quotes from the Koran and other Islamic texts I just googled. I've seen similar ones from the Bible...


    From Noble Quran:

    And whenever you give your word, say the truth [al-An'aam 6:152]

    And let not your hand be tied (like a miser) to your neck, nor stretch it forth to its utmost reach (like a spendthrift) [al-Isra' 17:29]

    “O ye who believe! Do not squander one another’s wealth in vanities, but let there be amongst you traffic and trade by mutual good will.” Qur’an:4:29

    “God does not forbid you to be kind and equitable to those who have neither fought against your faith nor driven you out of your homes. In fact God loves the equitable.” Qur’an:60:8

    “And in their (the earlier prophets) footsteps We sent Jesus the son o Mary, confirming the law that had come before him. We sent him the Gospel, therein was guidance and light and confirmation of the law that had come before him, a guidance and an admonition to those who fear God.” Qur’an:5:46

    “Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden (paradise) whose width is that of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous – Those who spend (freely), whether in prosperity or in adversity, who restrain (their) anger and pardon (all) men – for God loves those who do good.” Qur’an:3:133-134

    “Whoever works righteousness, man or woman, and has faith, verily, to them will We give a new Life, a life that is good and pure, and We will bestow on such their reward according to the best of their actions.” Qur’an:16:97



    From Hadith and Sunnah


    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “The best (Jihad) is (to speak) word of justice to an oppressive ruler.” Sunan of Abu-Dawood:2040

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “(Each one) of you should save himself from the fire by giving even half of a date (in charity). And if you do not find a half date, then (you can do it through saying) a pleasant word (to your brethren).” Bukhari:V2N394

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once told his wife: “Do not turn away a poor man..even if all you can give is half a date. If you love the poor and bring them near you…GOD will bring you near HIM on the Day of Resurrection.” Al-Tirmidhi:1376

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once told his wife: “Avoid Cruelty and injustice..and guard yourselves against miserliness, for this has ruined nations who lived before you.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:203

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) once said to one of his companions: “Son, if you are able, keep your heart..free from malice toward anyone.” Al-Tirmidhi:59


    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said: “Seven kinds of people will be sheltered under the shade of God on the Day of Judgment…They are: a just ruler, a young man who passed his youth in the worship and service of others for the sake of God…a man who is invited to sin…but declines, saying ‘I fear God’…one who spends his charity in secret, without making a show…and one who remembers God in solitude so that his eyes overflow.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:376

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “(God) has revealed to me that you should adopt humility so that no one oppresses another.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:1589

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “Avoid jealousy, for it destroys good deeds as fire destroys wood.” Riyadh-us-Salaheen:1569

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “Fasting is not (just abstaining) from eating and drinking, but also from vain speech and foul language. If one of you is being cursed or annoyed, he should say: ‘I am fasting, I am fasting.’ ” Fiqh-us-Sunnah:V3N132A

    The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said “Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day (of Judgment) should not harm his neighbor. Anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should entertain his guest generously. And anyone who believes in God and the Last Day should say what is good or keep quiet.” Bukhari:V8B73N47


    Random Wise Islamic Sayings:

    “Follow up a bad deed with a good deed, to cancel it out.”

    “Love for other people what you love for yourself.”

    “Deliberation is from Allaah, haste is from Shaytaan.”

    “Do not become angry, and Paradise will be yours.”

    “The most beloved of food to Allaah is that which is touched by many hands (i.e., shared among many people).”

    “Do not betray the one who betrays you.”

  16. #16

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    The letter below is a response from a Muslim lady to the Ben Affleck's ignorant interjection in the "Real Time with Bill Maher" show when Bill and Sam Harris were making very pertinent points about "Liberal's" double standards when it comes to the bad side of Islam, that part of Islam as a religion (not Muslims as people) that is inherently evil. First is a video of the relevant segment:



    An open letter to Ben Affleck

    Dear Ben,

    I am writing to you today as a woman who was born and raised in Islam. I saw your discussion with Bill Maher and Sam Harris, and I must say you did me a great disservice that day. Your heart was in the right place, of course, and it was lovely of you to step up and defend ‘my people’.

    What you really did though, perhaps inadvertently, was silence a conversation that never gets started. Two people attempted to begin a dialogue and you wouldn’t even listen. Why should any set of ideas be above criticism, Ben?

    Why are Muslims being ‘preserved’ in some time capsule of centuries gone by? Why is it okay that we continue to live in a world where our women are compared to candy waiting to be consumed? Why is it okay for women of the rest of the world to fight for freedom and equality while we are told to cover our shameful bodies? Can’t you see that we are being held back from joining this elite club known as the 21st century?

    Noble liberals like yourself always stand up for the misrepresented Muslims and stand against the Islamophobes, which is great but who stands in my corner and for the others who feel oppressed by the religion? Every time we raise our voices, one of us is killed or threatened. I am a blogger and illustrator, no threat to anyone, Ben, except for those afraid of words and drawings. I want the freedom to express myself without the very real fear that I might be killed for it. Is that too much to ask?

    When I wrote a children’s book that carried a message of diversity and inclusivity for everyone, my life changed. My book, ‘My Chacha (uncle) is Gay’ has the innocent anti-homophobia message, ‘Love belongs to everyone’. This was not palatable to many of my Muslim brothers and sisters.

    Since that project I have been declared an ‘enemy of God’ and deemed worthy of death. All because I want to help create a world where South Asian children too can have their stories told, so they too can know that love comes in all forms, and that that’s okay. My Muslim brothers and sisters were hit hard by this work because it addresses the issue of homophobia within our own community. It is not something they can pass off as ‘Western’ immorality. Just like they deny that any issues exist within the doctrine of Islam, many deny that homosexuality exists amongst good, ‘moral’ Muslims. Just like that, millions of people’s existence is denied. Please do not defend people who think this way, and let me tell you Ben, many ‘good’ Muslims do think this way.

    What you did by screaming ‘racist!’ was shut down a conversation that many of us have been waiting to have. You helped those who wish to deny there are issues, deny them. You became an instant hero, a defender of Islam. It’s kind, it really is. I understand because I too am plagued and affected by the issues brought about by actual Islamophobia. I have a Muslim name and brown skin, my peaceful relatives have been pushed in the subway and called ‘terrorist’ for no reason.

    I get that.

    We must distinguish critiquing an ideology from being hateful towards a group of people. And for this reason I think that tackling the issues within Islam should be two-pronged. They must be brought up, but simultaneously we should stress that blame for these issues cannot be placed on individuals.

    In the interest of being politically correct and ‘liberal’, we silence the voices of millions. I am turning to you because you were instrumental in starting this conversation. Those of us who want reform are muted by extremists, as well as the liberals who betray us in the name of multiculturalism.

    ISIS paints a horrific picture, so I understand the knee-jerk reaction to deny any link. Most Muslims choose to interpret scripture in a peaceful way, but that doesn’t mean the raw material isn’t there for those who choose the path of violence. That material must be addressed.

    Can we talk about the blatant double standards and violation of human rights, for a second? Mosques are built throughout western countries, usually without much issue. But in the hub of Islam, the heart of Islam, Saudi Arabia, no one but Muslims are allowed to officially practice their faith. There are no churches, temples or synagogues because Saudi Arabia will not permit any non-Muslim place of worship to exist. Who will hold them accountable for such injustice if we hush everyone who speaks out against Islam?

    What is so wrong with wanting to step into the current century? There should be no shame. There is no denying that violence, misogyny and homophobia exist in all religious texts, but Islam is the only religion that is adhered to so literally, to this day.

    In your culture you have the luxury of calling such literalists “crazies”, like the Westboro Baptist Church, for example. In my culture, such values are upheld by more people than we realise. Many will try to deny it, but please hear me when I say that these are not fringe values. It is apparent in the lacking numbers of Muslims willing to speak out against the archaic Shariah law. The punishment for blasphemy and apostasy, etc, are tools of oppression. Why are they not addressed even by the peaceful folk who “aren’t fanatical, who just want to have some sandwiches and pray five times a day? Where are the Muslim protestors against blasphemy laws/apostasy? Where are the Muslims who take a stand against harsh interpretation of Shariah? These sandwich-eating peaceful folk do not defend those suffering in the name of Islam, Ben, and therein lies our problem.

    Maybe the points Maher and Harris were trying to make are more easily digested when coming from within the community, I can appreciate that. That is why I am writing to you, as someone who has personally been hurt by the lack of acknowledgement of these issues.

    If Muslims do not critique their own atrocities, then people on the outside will and their message will not be listened to simply because of who they are. It’s a vicious cycle, one that can only break if indeed, like Harris said, true reformers are empowered.

    I ask you and anyone reading this to make an effort to seek out reformers from within our community, and support them in any way you can.

    If I were allowed to meet a man that is not my father, brother or husband unchaperoned, I would have loved to discuss this over drinks (which I am also not allowed to have) with you. So, you see, things must change.

    Sincerely,

    Eiynah


    http://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2014...o-ben-affleck/

  17. #17
    Calliope's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Garpal Gumnut View Post
    I have a fair few Muslim mates, they are good people and devout.
    gg
    I am intrigued by this statement. Being devout Muslims they would of course be alcohol abstainers and not part of your Ross Island Hotel circle. Also, being devout, they would adhere to the teachings of the Prophet and the Koran and regard you as an infidel.

    I don't think we should assume that devout means good.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
    I don't think we should assume that devout means good.
    I don't think it merans we should assume devout = bad either.

    Or are you one of the "don't trust a man who doesn't drink" crowd ?

  19. #19
    You are arguing with a Galah IFocus's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Religion is the invention of men.

    Animals don't follow it.

    Men have long wielded religion as a source of power exactly what happen pretty much though out the world before and now.

    Its men who urge others to kill in religions name not necessary the religion itself.

    The evil is inherit in the hearts of men thats the problem and that they can persuade others to murder.

    BTW our parliament is a derivative of the English system which was built on Christian principles from the new testament after the age of enlightenment and democracy has followed from that not the old testament had it been the old testament then perhaps we would be living a life similar to the current radical teachings of Islam.

    IMHO of course.

  20. #20
    Garpal Gumnut's Avatar
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    Default Re: Islam: Is it inherently Evil?

    Quote Originally Posted by Calliope View Post
    I am intrigued by this statement. Being devout Muslims they would of course be alcohol abstainers and not part of your Ross Island Hotel circle. Also, being devout, they would adhere to the teachings of the Prophet and the Koran and regard you as an infidel.

    I don't think we should assume that devout means good.
    Quote Originally Posted by SirRumpole View Post
    I don't think it merans we should assume devout = bad either.

    Or are you one of the "don't trust a man who doesn't drink" crowd ?
    I would agree.

    My position now is that there are evil people who cannot be remediated.

    I would equally oppose any efforts to remediate evil people.

    gg
    "I refuse to join any club that would have me as a member." Quote Groucho Marx
    Je suis Charlie



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