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  1. #1

    Default Service/Pride in Work

    Yesterday (Sunday) in frustration at what seems to be ever diminishing water pressure, I sent an email to the local water authority essentially saying that, although we understand the need to conserve water, maybe (in view of the widely known fact that the local dam is full) they could perhaps ease off on the pressure restrictions slightly. I expected the usual bureaucratic emailed response which said pretty much nothing.

    Wrong. First thing this morning two blokes arrive and cheerfully announce they have come to find out what the problem is. They replaced the water meter on the basis that it was "a bit old" and did a couple of other things, and lo, there is a slight improvement in the pressure.

    I was really astonished at this prompt attention and really appreciative.
    Chatting to them while they worked - they were both in their 50's and have spent most of their working life doing this stuff - I was struck by how happy they were in their work and how proud they were when they appeared to have effected an improvement. It was also obvious that they liked and respected each other, though I'd guess even if they didn't automatically like each other they'd just "get on" anyway.

    The episode made me wonder about our insistence on needing university degrees, and our determination to climb all the corporate ladders in search of "achievement". I just wondered whether these two blokes with their truck of tools and pride in their work, hadn't perhaps achieved more than many of us who have gritted our teeth in the competitive world of business.

    Would be interested to know what others think.


  2. #2
    Rotaredom wayneL's Avatar
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    Jul 2004

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work


    There is an interesting body of work by Alain de Botton, culminating in a book called "Status Anxiety" (and TV doco by the same name)

    It is along the lines you have outlined...a great read.

    His preceding volume "The Consolations of Philosophy" is also very good.


  3. #3

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    and i guess the same philosophies can be applied to share trading - all sorts of egos and 'wannabe' attitudes exist where good old taxi driver knowledge is all you need....sorry julia.

    anyway, on your point, "achieved more than many of us who have gritted our teeth in the competitive world of business" - i for one tried for many years to achieve thru that competitive world, and its proven itself to be JUST NOT WORTH IT. im happy with my lot, yeah i want more, but i aint gonna bust a gut trying to achieve it - and ultimately miss out on the enjoyments i was striving for....of course when these 2 bit stocks i love come thru all that will change, but in the meantime, its all relax and LET LIFE JUST FLOW OVER YOU.

  4. #4

    Smile Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Hi folks,

    Julia has made some interesting observations here.

    It seems that in many industries, we have experienced a
    definite downtrend in both workmanship and customer service.

    There's many reasons for such a trend, but it is really a
    global phenomena, with no country having a real solution,
    as yet.

    One reason, this was brought on by many multinational
    companies persisting in training graduates from emerging
    countries in jobs, normally filled by secondary school leavers
    in western countries .....

    ..... and graduates the world over, mostly have an
    expectation of working in a clean environment, without
    ever getting their hands dirty !~!

    So, when the graduates are required to do more menial work,
    they do it begrudgingly, taking no pride in their work or
    relationships in the workplace.


    Another reason for the lack of attention to detail is the
    "lost generation" of workers, from the 80's and 90's, where
    training tradesmen was a very low priority ..... and as a
    consequence, there's a shortage of good tradesmen now.

    "Good tradesmen" being those, who know their job and
    industry intimately, as well as being punctual and taking
    pride in a job well done ..... including cleaning away the
    mess, when the job is finished !~!


    Julia mentioned the attitude of those guys in their 50's,
    which was instilled in them from a very young age.

    In those days, kids were often expected to follow in
    the footsteps of their parents' career, in a trade or
    particular buisness ..... as such, kids were leaning a lot
    about their future career from their parents, from a very
    early age .....

    ..... and because there was always heaps to do, you would
    NEVER hear anybody come out with the phrase, "I'm bored".

    It is very different today, because modern technology has
    largely taken away kids' intuition and desire to explore many
    different roads and career paths.

    Over the past couple of generations, we have seen a rapid
    change in culture, from where kids could entertain themselves
    endlessly, to a point where kids need to BE CONSTANTLY
    entertained, otherwise they will be saying "I'm bored",
    very quickly.

    So, this is also reflected in their work attitudes ..... since,
    much of a tradesman's work is far from entertaining, they
    soon become "bored" and look for an easier way to make
    a living.

    We could write endlessly on this subject, as it is a huge
    part of the disunity that exists between the younger and
    older generations, in industry today.

    Suffice to say, the most likely place to find good service and
    workmanship will be in small business, where these
    attributes remain essential, if tradesment are to survive
    and thrive, in their chosen industry.

    happy days


  5. #5

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Julia, you are starting to make a habit of giving refreshing, down to earth examples in a well written form. Me thinks you should start a memoir.

    A man I once had the pleasure of knowing mentioned to me several years ago that I really needed to get my life back in shape. I had become rude, impulsive etc all for the want of cash.

    He invited me around to dinner with his lovely wife and proceeded to tell me his abridged life story. This is a man who left his home town, moved to Brisbane to earn the money to buy his wife to be an engagement ring. He returned home on weekends by bicycle (200 km round trip) to be with her for just several precious hours.

    He then preceded to skip forward a few years to the time they were ready for mariage. This man spent time in the New Guinea highlands earning what he could so his Wife to be would have a threshhold to be carried over after the wedding.

    After the children arrived, this man started meagre businesses based on his children's interests and passed them on to the siblings. With hard work and determination that was instilled in them, they prospered.

    He spoke to me after his monologue and said " Stan 101, you have really confused your standard of living with your quality of life."

    Within 3 weeks I'd packed in my job and aspirations and had headed to Burma, India and Laos...

    This man had everything in perspective, had a loving family and truly loved life. He sold hardware, timber, seafood and cows, but was passionate. He made a bolt and nut sound like the lost jewels of eternity when he waxed lyrical on it purpose and uses. I think Col was much like those two tradesman, Julia.

    I suppose

  6. #6
    Ralph Nelson Elliott Porper's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2004
    New Zealand

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Julia
    Chatting to them while they worked - they were both in their 50's and have spent most of their working life doing this stuff - I was struck by how happy they were in their work and how proud they were when they appeared to have effected an improvement. It was also obvious that they liked and respected each other, though I'd guess even if they didn't automatically like each other they'd just "get on" anyway.

    I think the "in their 50's" sums it up rather well.

    People from this era were thankful of a job and have a different philosophy about life in general to the younger generation.

    Youngsters today get everything they want from their parents or have huge credit card limits, so hate work generally, and you can tell by their presentation and attitude.Nothing phases kids today, and this reflects in the society we live in.

    Bring back national service I say, give these kids some discipline.They may then appreciate that life isn't just one big hand out.

    No, I do not have kids and certainly won't be having any.If you've ever seen Chitty Chitty bang bang, I want to come back as the child catcher
    My posts are for educational purposes only and should not be taken as financial advice in any way.

  7. #7
    Not a scaredy cat anymore Prospector's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Hmm, the expectations of the twenty-somethings is an issue we discuss a lot at home, with a twentysomething son and teenager.

    We have generally come to the conclusion that those teens who grew up during WWII (ie my mother who is 76 now) suffered the fear of outright war on their doorstep, lack of 'luxury' items like stockings (they had to use makeup on their legs and draw the seam line with a pencil), rationing (no chocolate) and when they married they had to stop employment. But by and large they knew how to enjoy themselves in simple ways; they loved their families, people stayed together for their lifetime; the simple life as they call it!

    My generation (almost 50) enjoyed a different life; I did see some friends being conscripted and sent to Vietnam, and who came back physically intact but mentally and emotionally damaged. But by and large we were safe, had our basic needs met as well as some nice extras. But not luxury, although by now we could see a new world out there because we now had televisions. I remember as a 4 year old the day our black and white TV arrived. We didnt travel because airfares were just through the roof. If you couldnt afford to pay for it, you didnt buy it because credit was a dirty word. There was no such thing as takeaway, except for a once a month treat of a roast chicken from a chicken shop that was 15 minutes away. Restaurants - only for birthdays. We lived for Christmas, birthdays and Easter because those were the only days we received a gift. We worked hard at school and some of us got to University but most of us expected to be employed. Our car was second hand, obviously no airconditioning, etc etc)

    Then we had children. We were affluent in comparison to our parents. We could afford to lash out a bit. Travel became achievable and we made up for our lack of experiences by interstate and overseas trips and if we had kids we took them with us. We had not just colour TV's but the plasma's and LCD's. We have computers, frequent takeways, restaurants, wines etc etc. We tend to buy the kids treats frequently, we indulge a bit more.

    When a couple marries today (or decides to combine households) they expect not to just rent a small unit for a while, but buy the full package - a house, with dishwashers, floor coverings, curtains (we had sheets for a couple of years and concrete floor in the lounge, rug offcuts in the bedroom) DVD recorders, digital cameras and videos, home theatre rooms - the list is endless! Credit is easy to get, so they live off the card.

    I got my first dishwasher 2 years ago, dont have the plasma TV, but I do indulge in travel, a lot!

    Other than the safety issue (and are we really that safe anyway?) are we any better off spiritually and emotionally than our parents

  8. #8

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    My thanks to everyone for such thoughtful responses. Sometimes I hesitate to bring up a topic for fear I might be the only person who finds it interesting and is prompted to wonder about the ramifications of what is on the surface just a passing observation.

    So it sounds as though this service/pride in one's work thing is at least partly a generational phenomenon? So have we gradually been conditioned to alter our expectations? Prospector has talked about accepting concrete floors and sheets on the walls rather than using credit. That's my experience also.

    I guess what I'm wondering now is how and when it all started to change.
    Why do we now have such great expectations of what we simply must have to feel OK?

    I also wonder whether these extreme expectations have extended into our personal relationships and our day to day dealings with other people.
    I don't necessarily think it was a good thing to "stick with a marriage" when it had gone sour as happened 50 years ago (possibly because of lack of financial alternatives in many instances), but I do wonder if we have completely lost the will to extend some tolerance and engage in some genuine effort to understand one another.

    It seems to come back to the instant gratification stuff - we want the houseful of all the latest stuff in the same way as we want the perfect relationship and ideal friendship - just don't ask us to put in any effort for it!

    If this seems a long way from my two blokes from the water authority this morning, it isn't really. They worked co-operatively, not competitively.

    I guess I'm wondering where this striving, competitive stuff starts?
    Is it with that overworked cliche" peer group pressure" as teenagers, or even earlier? I can remember as quite a young child only feeling OK if I was consistently first in the class at school and winning ballet trophies etc etc.
    It was not until I was in my mid 30's that I understood it was OK to just be mediocre! As Sonofbaglimit has said: to let it just flow over me.

    Prospector: what are the views of your 20 something and the teenager about this?

    And: we have lots of younger members on this forum. What do you think?Are we as an older generation seeming to be doing that thing of "oh, it was all so much better in our day"?


  9. #9

    Smile Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Hi folks,

    Julia, maybe this competetive spirit starts with the parents
    "keeping--up-with-the-Joneses", then it snowballs further,
    as the kids are expected to do better at school than their
    peers and so it goes, on and on and on .....


    Porper brought up a very important point ..... discipline !~!

    Self-discipline in being able to save cash for our needs,
    instead of buying everything on tick.

    Discipline of our kids ... a twitch of willow over the fingertips,
    by the school principal or a parent's leather belt across a bare
    backside was a sure way to get the kids' attention and gain
    some respect for the rules, at the same time .....

    Kids today have little respect for their parents and it shows
    in their working life, as well.

    Compulsory national service training would be a sure step
    to bring the wayward children of our immigrants back into
    line, as well.

    happy days


  10. #10

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    I also had first hand experience of service and pride in a job at the weekend. I had a fire on my property and the Rural Fire Service came to my rescue. Four fire trucks manned by volunteers ranging from 18 to 60 did a fantastic and thorough job of first controlling, then extinguishing the fire and then the most time consuming of all - the mopping up, making sure there was no possibility of it flaring up again. I was overwhelmed by their generosity and kindness and professionalism and was a revision lesson in community spirit - it is everywhere if one care to look.

    Just a comment on to-days kids - look they live in to-days world and on the whole are fine - just because they have everything, it doesn't mean they can't or won't perform just as well as the previous generations - they are just living in different circumstances. As for previous generations being able to amuse themselves - have you even been on long car trips in years gone by with four kids - torture!

    As for discipline, I use to smack my kids but have watch them bring up a generation without laying a hand on them and I admire their methods and results. As for national service - fine, as long as there is an option for community service for those who don't want to be in the various arms of the military. It doesn't suit everybody and could be (and has been) extremely detrimental

  11. #11
    Not a scaredy cat anymore Prospector's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Hi again

    Emma, I agree about National Service having seen the impact of conscription - never again! However, there are so many opportunities for young people to feel valued about themselves through community service, so maybe that is an area to look at.

    I think some parents have so little time to spend with their kids (through work, divorce etc etc) that when they do spend time with them, they either feel guilty about that and spend lavishly, or dont do the discipline stuff which, lets face it is hard hard work. It would be so much easier to give in rather than say No, and face a battle. But in the end, it works.

    I think Dads are so important in all this - their contribution to raising healthy well adjusted children has been totally ignored. My son (the twentysomething) now comments that the kids who have the most problems are those who have not had proper discipline from their father. He now acknowledges the battles we had with him as a 16 year old (we were just the WORST parents at the time according to him - ruining his social life!) were exactly what he needed!

    Our kids do expect to work hard and do expect to be well employed. They have had great experiences through travel but relative to their friends, dont have all the luxuries they see others having. (They attend(ed) private schools where P drivers drive new BMW's to school - parents - what are you thinking ) And they are happy, so maybe you can have it all!

  12. #12

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Hi Julia

    Your mention of university degrees and climbing the corporate ladder of achievment made me think of a story that one of my kids brought home from school the other day.

    The story concerns a young bloke from the same school...he was a very high academic achiever who could have got into pretty much any university course of his choosing. But two years ago when he finished grade 12, he dismayed his family and friends by showing no interest in going to uni, and instead got himself a job as a construction worker.
    For the last two years he's been woking longer than normal hours, taking all the overtime he can get and saving money dilligently. A couple of months ago at the age of 19 he bought his first investment property.
    He put tennants in the property....their rental combined with the tax deductability of his interest and other expenses, means that very little money has to come out of his pocket to service the loan.
    He says that in less than a year he'll be in a position to buy another property, and he intends to keep repeating this process over and over again to create his wealth at a young age from real estate.
    I have absolutely no doubt that he'll do exactly what he says. By the time kids of his age are finishing their uni degrees, this young fellow will own several houses and be well on his way to buliding his property portfolio.
    As his former school friends and other kids of their age enter the workforce in their 40 or 50 or 60k jobs, this young bloke will be earning similar money without the stress of trying to climb the corporate ladder, and at the same time he'll be accumulating property and creating his wealth by making his money and other people's making work for him.

    Don't get me wrong - I'm not against university education. Two of my kids are at uni, and my wife and I encouraged them to go there. We're also encouraging them to save money like their life depends on it, so that they too can invest in real estate and create wealth at a young enough age so as to avoid being wage slaves for the rest of their lives.

    The education system is long overdue for some changes in my view. One of its shortcomings is that it teaches kids little or nothing about how to make money work for them. The emphaisis of education is almost entirely on teaching kids stuff that will get them into uni, so they can then get themselves a career in which to spend their lives working for money.
    Working for money is fine, as long as you don't have to do it too long. Most people are tied to it most of their adult lives, because they've never been taught any different.
    Working for money should be the means to an end, but not the end itself.
    Making money work for you.....that's a subject in which school kids should be given considerable education and training, both in school and at home.

    Perhaps that young construction worker/property investor should be invited to conduct weekly lectures at his old school.....I'm sure he could teach the kids something really beneficial.


  13. #13

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Compulsory national service would do very little towards pulling wayward kids into line. In fact it might send some of them even further off the rails.
    If you want to see how 'in line' some of those army guys are, just go to a nightclub in Townsville which has a big army base.
    Not that I've done so myself, but one of my kids is at uni in Townsville and she reckons the army blokes are the worst bunch of drugging, boozing, brawling, womanising derelects she's ever seen anywhere.

    The culture of immoral, irresponsible behaviour is well entrenched in army life.
    Every so often the army, both in Australia and other countries, runs random drug tests on its troops. An alarmingly high percentage of them test positive to dope and other illegal substances.

    I pointed out to my daughter than not everyone in the army is like that.....there are plenty of responsible decent people among them.
    To which she replied...."Sure Dad, I understand that....but the bad element among them is really bad, believe me, I see it first hand".

    Let's say we pull our worst kids off the streets - those who are into drugs and petty crime and irresponsible behaviour - and we put them into the army for a couple of years.
    Which of their army colleagues are they going to pal up with? Will they hang out with the decent, responsible people, and suddenly turn over a new leaf by behaving responsibly themselves?
    No more boozing, drugging, brawling, womanising, petty crime etc?
    I doubt it!
    More likely they'll be drawn towards others of their own kind, and their irresponsible behaviour will continue, possibly even get worse.


  14. #14
    Not a scaredy cat anymore Prospector's Avatar
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    Jan 2006

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Quote Originally Posted by bunyip
    One of its shortcomings is that it teaches kids little or nothing about how to make money work for them. The emphaisis of education is almost entirely on teaching kids stuff that will get them into uni, so they can then get themselves a career in which to spend their lives working for money.

    Just wondering who you might get who is qualified to talk about investment issues at all schools . No teacher would want to touch this and nor should they!

  15. #15

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    I'm a Uni student.

    Generally speaking, I don't like the attitude most Uni students have towards others who aren't going to Uni - they seem to think they are superior because they're embarking on a wonderful career.. it may be the case for some, but for the great majority, I really doubt that is the case.

    Soon enough, I feel they'll be in the rat race and the money they're earning isn't going to mean diddly squat while they have poor money habits and a heavy desire to party hard and often... getting that house and living a financially secure life isn't as easy as they imagined.

    I think Uni doesn't teach a great deal of stuff that is relevant to the real world... I've learnt more about trading/investing in my own time than what I have studying Commerce at Uni. Hopefully I'll finish my degree and not even have to use it - I have no desire to live the rat race working my ass off for someone else any longer than I have to until I've got the skills/experience/contacts to allow me to get by without my degree!

  16. #16

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Sure I've posted this before but it's highly relevant here so I'll post it again.

    The wealthiest person I know works in one of the least socially acceptable jobs (and has in the past worked in the least socially acceptable job). She works in what is politely referred to as the adult entertainment industry and has always done so, first part time and later 7 nights a week. Trying to be family friendly here - I mean in front of an audience rather than behind closed doors though it used to be the latter as well. Her education level is grade 10 at a state school.

    Bottom line is that she has absolutely no need to work at all and hasn't done so for some time. But she kept pushing herself incredibly hard in two directions. Firstly to be the best and earn a high income from working (the average hourly rate she earns is now more than the average worker earns in a week) and also through acquiring and operating various businesses.

    Now worth $ millions and has several hundred employees in various activities including nightclubs, adult entertainment venues, taxis, laundromats, bus tours and service stations.

    So why keep working running the businesses (though she's only a decision maker in that role, others do practically all the actual administration work) and at the coal face in what by most people's standards is a less than attractive job? Her answer is something along the lines of "because to do otherwise when the customers are clearly saying they want me to continue would be a case of extreme arrogance".

    On the other hand, the most arrogant, self-obsessed individual that I have ever met is aged about 30 (so roughly the same as the woman above). He has a medical degree and suffice to say that makes him really something and the rest of us simply aren't of his calibre.

    That's not to say that there aren't perfectly reasonable people with degrees etc. I know quite a few. But anyone who thinks that having certain qualifications or doing a certain job makes them a better person than someone else is very, very wrong.

    No matter what you do, do it well is my best advice.

    On the subject of age, there will always be exceptions to the rule. Just thinking about the people that I supervise at work, the most troublesome two are aged mid 30's and about 60. The most reliable two are aged 20 and about 50. This is in terms of productivity and overall responsibility.

    As for the idea of national service, I am strongly opposed to it for the reason that I believe that government can not be trusted to refrain from abusing such a scheme. It would almost certainly be used for political ends from manipulation of statistics through to obtaining cheap labour for vote-buying projects. The primary problem I see in such a scheme however is in dragging down and delaying the progress of the true achievers whilst doing little to raise the standard of those at the bottom of the scale.

    What makes people happy at work? IMO's it's doing what YOU like doing rather than what your parents or others think you ought to be doing.

  17. #17

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    Quote Originally Posted by Prospector
    Just wondering who you might get who is qualified to talk about investment issues at all schools . No teacher would want to touch this and nor should they!
    IMO someone who is actually successful themselves rather than someone who simply has qualifications but hasn't actually acieved success themselves.

    You don't get a fat person (I'm a bit overweight myself and so is missus Smurf so not being derogatory there) to talk about fitness and weight loss. It's easier in theory than in practice.

    You don't get a smoker to give advice on quitting smoking even if they have some relevant qualifications. The strong advice from missus Smurf who has been there, done that with this one is listen only to those who have actually done it themselves (which in her case was myself though I was reluctant to admit it until she decided she was serious about it - didn't want to put too much pressure on her as that is anything but helpful).

    You don't get a science teacher to teach music. You get someone who can actually play an instrument and read music.

    I very much remember on my last day of high school being given a lecture on obeying the law by someone who had actually spent considerable time in jail (now released and living a normal life). Various others came in to talk about other things (finance might have been one of them...) but that is the one I remember since quite obviously he knew what he was on about whereas the others were simply "experts" who hadn't been there, done that.

    So IMO the ideal person to teach about finances and making money (as opposed to simply the mechanical aspects of how interest is calculated etc which a maths teacher ought to know) is someone who has actually made a lot of money themselves. Might be hard to find though.

  18. #18

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work


    The way to get this type of education into schools is to get successful property investors to teach it to trainee teachers as part of their university couse.
    And then make it part of the school curriculum.
    It wouldn't take much to teach it to trainee teachers. A one hour session once a week from an experienced property investor should be enough to impart the knowledge to trainee teachers.

    Similarly, one lesson a week is all it would take to give this information to school students.

    The information could be as simple as...

    *Open two bank accounts as soon as you join the workforce. One account is for day to day living expenses. The other account is your investment account where you deposit 10 to 20% of every pay packet.
    The investment account absolutely must not be used for anything except accumulating money for investment.
    If you run out of money in your day to day living account, then you do without until next pay day. But under no circumstances do you touch your investment account to meet day to day living costs.

    *As soon as you have enough money saved to satisfy your bank's loan requirements, buy a reasonably modern house or unit in a growth area.
    Use the rental income and the tax deductions of interst and other expenses to meet the loan committments. Properly structured, the investment
    should require very little money from your own pocket.....the contributions of the tennants and the tax man will see to that.

    *Repeat the process over and over again....keep saving and keep buying more properties as your finances permit - keep enlisting the help of tennants and the tax man. Use the increasing value of your properties to borrow against for more properties.

    Another excellent move would be to make 'The Richest Man In Babylon' compulsory reading in all secondary schools. This little book costing about $20 contains some of the simplest and most commonsense wealth creation advice you'll find anywhere. And it imparts this advice through interesting stories that strike a chord with kids and adults alike. I made sure all my kids read this book early in their teen years.
    When I think of the boring rubbish I had to study in school English classes (Shakespeare for example), I find it totally amazing that decades later my kids are forced to study the same boring garbage instead of worthwhile texts on wealth creation that could put them on the road to financial independence.
    Shakespeare may be considered a literary genius, but his works have little relevance in today's education system....today's kids need an education that equips them for todays world.


  19. #19

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    I think it's a slight case of rose coloured glasses saying everyone from previous generations had pride in their work and was grateful for what they had. Plenty of the younger generations take pride in what they do, it's generally just the smaller group that make the most noise.

    And that's probably the crux of it right there. The people enjoying themselves are doing just that, enjoying themselves, whether it be working/raising a family/holidays etc.

  20. #20
    Not a scaredy cat anymore Prospector's Avatar
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    Jan 2006

    Default Re: Service /Pride in Work

    OK, I agree that it is good for young people to learn about financial matters. However, when it comes to investment issues, like buying houses for investment, well, that is a whole diferent matter. I wouldnt like someone coming in to the school saying to my children to buy an Investment property, because that could be totally the wrong decision for them to do.

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