Emissions trading, emissions reductions: WTF??? - Aussie Stock Forums

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  1. #1

    Default Emissions trading, emissions reductions: WTF???

    I hope we can use this thread to pool our information about the proposed Australian legislation on carbon emissions.

    I was a bit startled that there's no direct link to a description of the bill from the home page of the Dept of Environment and Climate Change http://www.climatechange.gov.au/. However it's not too hard to find. This page is an overview of government action to reduce carbon http://www.climatechange.gov.au/en/g...nt/reduce.aspx and there's a link from it to a description of the bill. There's also a link to a description of something called the "National Greenhouse and Energy Reporting Act 2007", which is about how we measure what's going on. I think the overview is worth a look so I'll stop here with the URLs.

    There are questions on several threads about how emissions trading will - or even could - reduce carbon emissions. I'm prepared to have a go at a general answer to that: alone, it won't. However the bill that's almost being debated in the Senate doesn't propose emissions trading alone. It also implements a cap on the nation's carbon emissions. The cap's the thing that will reduce emissions. It's also a major influence on the price of permits to emit.

    As ever the devil's in the details and so is most of the obfuscation and fury. I hope we can pull together some real information about the details, from all our various sources.


    Without music, life would be a mistake

  2. #2

    Default Re: Emissions trading, emissions reductions: WTF???

    Nobody has any information about the Australian Carbon Pollution Reduction Bill???

    What do we base our opinions, pro or anti, on then? Other threads suggest people have them.

    For the record, I'd rather have this bill than no bill but I have deep reservations about the details. One reason is that there are so many of them. That's why I'm hoping for information.


    Without music, life would be a mistake

  3. #3

    Default Re: Emissions trading, emissions reductions: WTF???

    Gee you are a bit ambitious Ghotib!! I doubt whether a fraction of the parliament has read the bill (if it exists in a final form) and if they had whether they could understand it. Certainly I suggest it would be waaaayyyy too long, and detailed for almost everyone on this forum.

    So how do people make up their minds? The usual way - with absolute conviction and not a shred of knowledge. Much like political commentator Andrew Bolt.

    It would be good if there was a short story somewhere that outlined the bill. I suspect however ( I'm absolutely certain....) that the bill would have so many subclauses and archaic comments it would be well nigh impossible to reduce to a legitimate short story.

    And I agree with your reservations about the detail. Death by a thousand cuts.

  4. #4

    Default Re: Emissions trading, emissions reductions: WTF???

    After reading the overview of government action document I did remember one of the most appalling consequences of the Bill.

    As I understand it the government wants to reduce overall GG emissions by (say) 5% (way to low) by 2020. But it seems as though when householders actually undertake carbon reduction programs the savings they make can be automatically used by big business in the form of carbon permits with no net reduction in CO2 emissions. The only way to ensure a reduction in emission is for the householder to

    1) Make the investment in solar panels whatever
    2) Buy back the renewable energy certificate (at their cost) and destroy it so it can't be used. Just not sure how many totally committed people there are out there.

    There is another related issue which seems like a giant con. At the moment there are many companies running around trying to get households to replace incandescent lights with CFL's. The idea is that when each 100 watt incandescent is replaced with a 15 watt CFL there will be some 1-2 tonnes of CO2 saved over the life of the globe. And so the companies are madly distributing millions of these globes and accumulating tne renewable energy certificates purporting to show all this reduction in greenhouse gas.

    As I see it (and I know the industry exceptionally well) the figures just don't add up.

    Essentially many, many of the lights that are replaced will never return the GG savings they are credited with. Why? because most of the lights aren't used for more than 1-2 hours a week or 50-100 hours a year. The nominal life of the lamp(upon which the GG savings are calculated) is 15,000 hours. At 100 hours a year it would take 150 years to achieve the savings.

    Think about the standing lamps around the house, the lights in a garage, the ones that are in the garage door, the old toilet out the back. You can be absolutely certain that every possible socket has been found and plugged to gain maximum renewable energy certificate value.

    It does make sense to replace the higher usage lights with CFLs. But it's not honest to immediately claim huge GG savings that will simply never materialise.

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