Storm Financial Group

[Mindstorm]

Mindstorm

I’m not trying to rub it into you Stormers, but this forum gives us a golden opportunity to discover the how’s and why’s of the Storm debacle. By discussing these issues we just might be able to steer some future investors away from the mistakes that helped to bring you undone.
We’ve all made mistakes at times, me included. It’s important to recognise these mistakes, learn from them and accept responsibility for them, as I know you do. But there are some on here who flatly refuse to do so.

Bunyip,

I've never felt that you were 'rubbing it in' to me, or to other stormies. I've confided in you by PM and you have never said anything to me that I didn't need to hear.

I do honestly think that you have tried to understand why we stormies ended up in the place we ended up in.

I have been very grateful for your opinions on my own situation, and I recognise the fact that you're trying to help others to avoid the situations that we stormies have found ourselves in.

MS

[Mindstorm]

I would agree bunyip, it is a valuable opportunity to self examine on forums such as this.

I for one have learnt from a dispassionate self examination of my investing failures on ASF.

Perhaps for the Storm investors it is too recent, or they will never have the capacity to develop any insight, or that as they say they were jejunes in the hands of Storm, the Banks and ASIC.

gg

With all due respect GG, I have taken all that Bunyip has said to me, or to others, and also all posts by others, onboard.

I am learning, albeit slowly, just how foolish I was. As I said before... wherever... 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Not being sarcastic at all now, but if I had the chance to do it all over again I would be much better educated to do so.

MS

[Harleyquin]

Bunyip I actually agree with you and I'm sure there will be those out there who will know how to benefit. I am not knowledgeable enough to know just what went on behind closed doors between storm and the banks, but I do know this much. This should never have happened. We should be able to trust these people and not excuse the criminal choices that they made.

When I read Mindstorms post, I thought, that was us exactly. The other thing that struck me only recently was 'there were two of us with that financial advisor and when I didn't understand something I 'assumed' that my husband did. I said this to him not so long back and he said the same thing. So it didn't bother either of us unduly as we thought that between the two of us we understood. Big mistake...never ASSUME anything.

[bunyip]

Either that or the amount of shares you own are not worth talking about. Mostly in life you will find the people beating their chest the loudest are the smallest in the jungle.

She asked me if I had some shares that I was concerned about. I answered her. No chest beating there that I can see.

Are you ever going to send in a worthwhile post that says something that might actually help investors steer clear of trouble from here on?
Let's hear your version of how Storm victims could have done things differently to avoid getting burnt.
Surely this would be more productive than degrading yourself with one moronic post after another.

[jjtebj12]

Well the banks have rolled the dice!! Not even interested in negotiations. They are already appealing to the High Court. Asic about time you stood up.

[Ijustnewit]

She asked me if I had some shares that I was concerned about. I answered her. No chest beating there that I can see.

Are you ever going to send in a worthwhile post that says something that might actually help investors steer clear of trouble from here on?
Let's hear your version of how Storm victims could have done things differently to avoid getting burnt.
Surely this would be more productive than degrading yourself with one moronic post after another.

Nothing degrading and moronic about my post. You shouldn't call the kettle black.
Come on lets hear more about your great feats of investment strategies.
Tell us more about how as a twenty something you lost a couple of hundred grand wasn't it ? Allot of money some twenty years ago ,or did you add a couple of zeros to grandoise the story. I promise I won't call you greedy , stupid or you should have used Google and did your own research. Or how you have driven thousands of miles without incident. I think allot of your anger is actually towards yourself and you use this forum to deflect it on to others. A bit like a school yard bully. I feel you love the attention and it helps your ego.
As far as trying to tell my version of the Storm story it's the same as the others.It's a shame really, as you'll see that very few Stormies will post because of the flak they receive from posters like you. I wouldn't waste my time as you would just come back with some nasty belittling comment and give you more ammo for your little ego.
I would sooner spend my time turning my attention to you and giving the doctor some of his own medicine. It is well known that allot of that anger you seem to be carrying can cause disease and cancer. I hope you eventually find some happiness in your life.

[maccka]

Well the banks have rolled the dice!! Not even interested in negotiations. They are already appealing to the High Court. Asic about time you stood up.

Hi jjtebj12,

Are you talking about this week's mediations? Hmmm if it's going to court things are about to get very interesting!

Cheers
Maccka

[Garpal Gumnut]

With all due respect GG, I have taken all that Bunyip has said to me, or to others, and also all posts by others, onboard.

I am learning, albeit slowly, just how foolish I was. As I said before... wherever... 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing.

Not being sarcastic at all now, but if I had the chance to do it all over again I would be much better educated to do so.

MS

Thanks Mindstorm,

I have equally learnt much from the posts by Storm investors caught up in this loss of wealth and for many a peaceful retirement.

The dignity displayed in adversity shows the courage of men and women left with often just that dignity, after losing their lifetime savings. Their opinions and experiences are valuable, especially to younger posters.

I would hope that other Storm investors are not dissuaded from giving their opinions in spite of the sometimes robust opinions expressed on ASF.

gg

[Solly]

Hi jjtebj12,

Are you talking about this week's mediations? Hmmm if it's going to court things are about to get very interesting!

Cheers
Maccka

Maccka
Game on..

[bunyip]

Nothing degrading and moronic about my post. You shouldn't call the kettle black.
Come on lets hear more about your great feats of investment strategies.
Tell us more about how as a twenty something you lost a couple of hundred grand wasn't it ? Allot of money some twenty years ago ,or did you add a couple of zeros to grandoise the story. I promise I won't call you greedy , stupid or you should have used Google and did your own research. Or how you have driven thousands of miles without incident. I think allot of your anger is actually towards yourself and you use this forum to deflect it on to others. A bit like a school yard bully. I feel you love the attention and it helps your ego.
As far as trying to tell my version of the Storm story it's the same as the others.It's a shame really, as you'll see that very few Stormies will post because of the flak they receive from posters like you. I wouldn't waste my time as you would just come back with some nasty belittling comment and give you more ammo for your little ego.
I would sooner spend my time turning my attention to you and giving the doctor some of his own medicine. It is well known that allot of that anger you seem to be carrying can cause disease and cancer. I hope you eventually find some happiness in your life.

I didn’t say I lost a couple of hundred grand when I was in my twenties. And I didn’t add any zeros either.

It’s unfortunate that your Storm experience has made you angry and bitter against someone whose had some success in his life while you got wiped out by a reckless gamble you could have easily avoided.

[bunyip]

Bunyip,

I've never felt that you were 'rubbing it in' to me, or to other stormies. I've confided in you by PM and you have never said anything to me that I didn't need to hear.

I do honestly think that you have tried to understand why we stormies ended up in the place we ended up in.

I have been very grateful for your opinions on my own situation, and I recognise the fact that you're trying to help others to avoid the situations that we stormies have found ourselves in.

MS

Thanks Mindstorm

You’ve shown great character in the way you’ve dealt with adversity.

All the best – I hope things work out OK for you and your family.

[Frank Ainslie]

Hi All,

I have learnt more about human nature in the last few years than I ever could have imagined. Reading through the jaundiced views of some on this forum, I am reminded of the words in that song, ‘Good, Bad and Beautiful’:

…”I’ve seen a man lift a man when he’s down and put him back on his feet
I’ve seen a man kick a man when he’s down in a lonely Street…”

In the first line one could well place Solly for trying to lift his mate up when he’s down and quite a few others who have sought to be objective and understanding rather than judgemental. In the second line, well it’s not hard to see who the “kick in the guts” merchants are on this forum because they are easily identified.

The world is in a mess today because there are millions of people that hold certain beliefs and want others to believe likewise. They seek to bend other people to their will by getting them to agree with them no matter what. The truth is sacrificed to their wants. Accordingly, they will pervert truth, spread half-truths, distort the facts, and distort the evidence. If this doesn’t work, they will seek to denigrate your opinions because they cannot stand the thought that someone else may have views that conflict with their’s.

Let’s take ‘Bunyip’ with the steel cap boots for instance who seems to think that the only rich people that invested in Storm were Helen and I – just the two of us! Everyone else was an unfortunate victim but we had x-ray vision and should have therefore known better. Sure, we were rich in assets but is that a crime?

“Is that the best you can do – claim that if ASIC and bankers and accountants couldn’t see through it, then nobody could?”
My furry friend! Are you trying to sink to new levels of puerility? Don’t you yet understand that if professional financial people couldn’t see through Storm’s financial scheme, ordinary people had no chance! Do I have to spell it out for you again?

“You rarely if ever manage to back your profound statements with any sort of solid logic or sound reasoning or common sense.”
I thought I had used solid logic and sound reasoning when presenting our case? I think your problem may lie in your inability to recognise such?

“After all the years of ASIC’s well publicised incompetence long before Storm came to prominence, I would have thought that a worldly and experienced businessman/ investor like yourself would have treated ASIC's views with extreme caution."
I’m not sure what you mean by this? I was under the impression that ASIC was formed to protect consumers although it’s easy to forget this from time to time the way ASIC performs. However, why anyone would treat ASIC with extreme caution is beyond me. ASIC exists! It may not be the most efficient or effective body around but its all we here in Australia have at the moment. If we can’t trust ASIC who the Hell can we trust?

Now I get it! What you and a few others are basically telling us is that we shouldn’t trust anyone be they ASIC, financial advisers, doctors, accountants, bank managers, insurance companies, or anyone else for that matter that offer professional services based on their presumed level of expertise because they might be giving people the wrong advice? Instead, when people are ill, have been wronged in law, want to insure anything, want to put money in a bank, need to have their financials done or whatever, they should instead surf the Internet to reassure themselves that they are doing the right thing beforehand. In other words, don’t trust anyone that calls himself/herself a professional because one needs to check them out first. And just who do you think on the Internet will be supplying you with this information if not the same people that you are telling us not to trust in the first place? Yes, that's right - professionals in their own field! Get a grip, my good man, because I think you are starting to lose touch with reality!

“Of the many thousands of people who approached Storm and looked at their strategy, some signed on, some walked away after judging it too risky. There’s no point in arguing if it was 75% who walked away, or 60% or whatever. The fact is that many thousands of people rejected the Storm strategy as too risky."
Just another piece of nonsense by you! I think Doobsy in a past posting somewhere has put this in perspective very well by stating that it is not unusual for many people to seek advice and then decide not to take up what is on offer. It doesn't mean by doing so that they, as you suggest, spot the obvious flaws in such when so doing and walk away. You know that already but you have chosen to ignore this minor detail because it doesn’t fit your argument. Their reasons as you very well know for rejecting advice can be numerous. You, however, want to tell everyone that what 'Stormies' did by committing to Storm was outside the norm and anyone with any common sense would have walked away. The fact is that many thousands didn't and that should suggest (bearing in mind that even financial professionals couldn't see through it) even to those with half a brain, that the Storm scheme on the surface seemed viable. We know NOW that it wasn't but where were the experts on this forum or any other for that matter with their sage advice when Storm was operating? Anyone can be wise after the event!

As I have stated before, thousands invested using Storm, not just Helen and I as you would have everyone believe. Your attempts to divorce those people from us by insisting that we are different is ludicrous. You have never met us, have no idea of what we are really all about, or have any notion of what we have been through. Yet, you and a few others profess to know our motivation for investing with Storm. What really gets up your nose though is the thought that we don’t agree with your view of us because it doesn't fit your own.

Some people do have the ability to lift a man up when he's down. Your kind can only put in the boot because it makes you feel good. It's a pathetic way to be and I feel sorry for you. We may have lost our money, but we will never lose our dignity or compromise ourselves by bowing to liars, cheats, charlatans, or carpet-baggers. Nor will we bend to people like you that want to throw the first stone because it gives you a sense of importance and self-righteousness.

"If you’re going to continue making such claims, let’s see you back your viewpoint with some solid argument."
Do you actually absorb anything posted on this forum or are you just ready with your highlighter to pick out segments that you can respond to in your own inimitable asinine way. I have taken the trouble to explain why Helen and I invested using Storm but this has clearly not been good enough for you. As Solly has said recently, I have said and many others have also said, we are not in the dock along with those accused. Yet, you constantly seek to put us there! Your failure to understand this simple fact indicates to me that you are off with the fairies which remains your problem, not mine!

“For instance, “In an earlier post I demonstrated to you how just ten seconds of research could have revealed the risks in Storm’s strategy. I backed that statement with historical figures, logic and sound reasoning.” Ten seconds is rather a long time for one with your omniscience? Poor old ‘Doobsy’ took a few hours to do the same exercise and he works in the profession! But then again, he unfortunately doesn’t have your business acumen or your contacts on the Internet.

“Logic and sound reasoning!” Somehow, that doesn’t quite equate with your previous postings. You seem more intent on giving us all a good belly laugh! Thanks for that! We all need cheering up at this particular time.

“Let’s see you do the same with your views, Frank – it shouldn’t be too hard if your beliefs are formed from a solid basis of fact.”
I have already presented the “facts” in past postings and you have merely responded with “suppositions”. Therefore, I suggest that you go back to school and learn the difference between the two. In order to do this you will have to clear your mind of the obvious prejudices that exist there and the belief that everyone but you is wrong. Too much moon gazing could be the cause!

Your constant verbal harangues are a mild irritant to those involved with Storm that also are members of this forum, but it will not distract us from our purpose.

For anyone on this forum that is reluctant to post because of the vitriol they might receive back from Mr. Rabbit and others, I say to you, “Don’t let rabbits scare you away? They are rather cute animals that are rather timid by nature and make good eating. They don’t have much sense so they are easily caught."

But then again, isn’t that what they accuse us of being - [I]"not having much sense and easily caught?" I guess we were when you think about it because we thought we could trust those that operate in the financial sector with our money. We also thought that we could trust this Government to protect us with statutory regulations that were adequate. Furthermore we made the mistake of assuming that ASIC had effective systems and resources in place to police the market.

But then I forgot that according to “rabbit law” we shouldn’t trust anyone because they just can’t be trusted. I wish we had known that some years ago because it would have saved us a lot of money and time which we could have spent more productively - hunting rabbits for instance.

[jjtebj12]

Wonder about the silence of John Gibbs, John Buchanan and Andrew Symons who reportedly lost millions?

[bunyip]

(1) Are you trying to sink to new levels of puerility? Don’t you yet understand that if professional financial people couldn’t see through Storm’s financial scheme, ordinary people had no chance! Do I have to spell it out for you again?

(2) I was under the impression that ASIC was formed to protect consumers although it’s easy to forget this from time to time the way ASIC performs. However, why anyone would treat ASIC with extreme caution is beyond me.

(3) Now I get it! What you and a few others are basically telling us is that we shouldn’t trust anyone be they ASIC, financial advisers, doctors, accountants, bank managers, insurance companies, or anyone else for that matter that offer professional services calls himself/herself a professional because one needs to check them out first.

(4) You, however, want to tell everyone that what 'Stormies' did by committing to Storm was outside the norm and anyone with any common sense would have walked away. The fact is that many thousands didn't and that should suggest (bearing in mind that even financial professionals couldn't see through it) even to those with half a brain, that the Storm scheme on the surface seemed viable. Anyone can be wise after the event!

(5) You have never met us, have no idea of what we are really all about, or have any notion of what we have been through. Yet, you and a few others profess to know our motivation for investing with Storm.

(6) Ten seconds is rather a long time for one with your omniscience? Poor old ‘Doobsy’ took a few hours to do the same exercise and he works in the profession! But then again, he unfortunately doesn’t have your business acumen or your contacts on the Internet.

(1) So you expect us to believe that not one of the thousands of people who consulted Storm could have seen through Storm’s investment scheme! To quote you, they had ‘no chance’.
Gee Frank – guess it must have been just pure luck then that made most of them walk away. Yeah right!
Ol’ mate, you just can’t accept that many of those people were a lot smarter and more perceptive than you were.
You didn’t get burnt because it was impossible to see the risks in the Storm strategy. You got burnt because you put very little effort into finding those risks.

(2) Long before the Storm saga, ASIC was on public record for their poor performance....hardly the sort of organisation I’d want to place faith in, although you seemed to think it was OK to do so.

(3) What I and others are telling you is that you need to thoroughly look into an investment proposal before committing millions of dollars to it.

(4) Many schemes seem viable on the surface, Frank. It's when you scatch below the surface that the real story is revealed.
Sure, anyone can be wise after the event. But what you can't seem to accept is that in the case of Storm, many people were wise before the event.

(5) So tell us then Frank - what exactly was your motivation for investing with Storm ....given that you were 65 years old with plenty of money for a debt-free self-funded retirement?
You've admitted that you had no need to mortgage your home. You reject the suggestion that you were motivated by greed.
So what did motivate you?

(6) Doobsy said it would take him about an hour to read Storm’s SOA - a couple of hours all up to re-read sections to get to the heart of the strategy.
Given that the SOA was 107 pages, much of it useless waffling without getting to the point, I’m surprised that it wouldn’t have taken him much longer.
Here’s an extract from Doobsy’s post.........

To catch up a little - Frank - any decent adviser would take probably 1 hour to read the SOA as it was full of appendices and cashflow projections but the first 40-50 pages were generally full of generic information.
They would probably re-read the advice section a couple of times but within a couple of hours would easily be able to identify the strategy and the fact what was behind it. As such they could easily identify how risky it was.

I wonder what Doobsy would have told you if you’d gone to him and said..... ‘I’m 65 years old – what I propose to do is mortgage my home to raise a large margin loan to combine with my own money, and sink the whole lot into the stock market. Then I’ll raise another big margin loan through double gearing, and I’ll sink that into the market as well’.
I’m pretty sure that Doobsy and any other reputable financial adviser would have been able to tell you on the spot that the proposal was extremely risky - I doubt if they’d even need to look at the figures.

I’ve told you that you could have uncovered the risk in the Storm model in just ten seconds. All you had to do was take your proposed market investment – lets use 2 million dollars as an example – and divide that figure by four to tell you how much money you could lose in just one day if there was a repeat of the 1987 market crash that wiped 25% off the market in a single day, and 50% in just over a month.
Divide 2 million dollars by two (another 10 second calculation) to find out what your losses could be in just a few weeks if the ‘87 crash was repeated.
Actually I’m wrong – I’ve just hauled out my calculator and done the figures – it took 5 seconds, not 10. And about 2 seconds to do it my head.
Feel free to show me where my claim is incorrect.

[maccka]

Although I am not Forum admin, I'd like to take the time to remind posters of the forum rules we ALL agreed to when we signed up to ASF and we confirm everytime we login.

Source :
http://www.aussiestockforums.com/for...p?do=showrules

"By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, defamatory, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

CODE OF CONDUCT
1. Aussie Stock Forums was established and is built around the concepts of mutual respect and the free exchange of information and knowledge for the benefit of all.

2. All members must treat other members with respect at all times. This means insults, name calling and personal attacks on other members are strictly forbidden. Forum trolling - the intentional provoking of other forum members - is also forbidden. Please treat other members as you yourself would wish to be treated. Repeated violations of this rule will result in the suspension of your Aussie Stock Forums account.

3. Obscene language and the use of language that is sexist, racist, harassing or threatening is strictly forbidden and will not be tolerated. ....."

The fact that there are so many posts asking for Stormies to post to the thread regardless of the trolling, flaming, harassment and bullying of the same few identities speaks volumes to the culture that has developed on this thread.

How about some people take a long hard look at themselves and start behaving like rational adults rather than cyber-bullies?

Cheers
Maccka

[Bonk]

I am about to visit Queensland as a tourist next month, is there anything one should be warned off on ..... I hear the place has scams ,corruption et al.,. This may be on the wrong thread , but people here would be much wiser to ask? Thank you !

[Joe Blow]

Just a reminder that this thread should be about discussing the issues, not each other. I understand that a number of those participating in this thread were caught up in the whole Storm Financal collapse and that it is inevitable that there will be discussion about the decisions of those who invested with Storm. Fair enough. That's to be expected given the topic of the thread. However, it is possible for that discussion to occur without so much angst and provocation. All it takes is a little bit of effort to keep things both civil and respectful.

I think that there needs to be a little more understanding shown, from those on both sides of this debate. So I would ask everyone to not attack other thread participants, treat others with respect at all times and avoid being deliberately provocative.

Thank you all in advance for your co-operation.

[sval62]

I am about to visit Queensland as a tourist next month, is there anything one should be warned off on ..... I hear the place has scams ,corruption et al.,. This may be on the wrong thread , but people here would be much wiser to ask? Thank you !

Just watch out for shady looking blokes riding bikes without helmets,drinking copious amounts of cask wine and most likely have a bunch of women hanging off each arm.
I think one looks like thiscapone_article.jpg

[Frank Ainslie]

Although I am not Forum admin, I'd like to take the time to remind posters of the forum rules we ALL agreed to when we signed up to ASF and we confirm everytime we login.

Source :
http://www.aussiestockforums.com/for...p?do=showrules

"By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, defamatory, sexually-orientated, hateful, threatening, or otherwise violative of any laws.

CODE OF CONDUCT
1. Aussie Stock Forums was established and is built around the concepts of mutual respect and the free exchange of information and knowledge for the benefit of all.

2. All members must treat other members with respect at all times. This means insults, name calling and personal attacks on other members are strictly forbidden. Forum trolling - the intentional provoking of other forum members - is also forbidden. Please treat other members as you yourself would wish to be treated. Repeated violations of this rule will result in the suspension of your Aussie Stock Forums account.

3. Obscene language and the use of language that is sexist, racist, harassing or threatening is strictly forbidden and will not be tolerated. ....."

The fact that there are so many posts asking for Stormies to post to the thread regardless of the trolling, flaming, harassment and bullying of the same few identities speaks volumes to the culture that has developed on this thread.

How about some people take a long hard look at themselves and start behaving like rational adults rather than cyber-bullies?

Cheers
Maccka

No problem with that, Maccka, as far as I am concerned! The sooner we get back to some sensible debate, the better in my view!

I'll stick by the rules as long as others do the same. One thing is for sure! Neither I or others want to be continually going over old ground because it's getting is nowhere. Nor do we want to be endlessly defending ourselves from attacks by certain individuals that cannot accept what we have to say. If they don't agree with us, that is their prerogative. Certainly many won't but some people seem to be hell-bent on turning this into a personal vendetta. Why, is beyond me because I can see nothing being gained by doing so.

The people that suffered at the hands of Storm have been through enough and they therefore do not need to be inundated with further abuse. Rather, they need to be encouraged to post so that their views can be aired which will only add to and further promote healthy debate. I think most of us want this to happen but the current climate on this forum makes anyone involved with Storm very wary of doing so! I can give as good as I get, but it's an unproductive exercise because it stifles rather than fosters healthy debate.

I hope now that we can go forward and I for my part will certainly co-operate in this regard.

[maccka]

No problem with that, Maccka, as far as I am concerned! The sooner we get back to some sensible debate, the better in my view!

I hope now that we can go forward and I for my part will certainly co-operate in this regard.

Thank you Frank.

Cheers
Maccka