Aussie Stock Forums code of conduct

[Joe Blow]

When I started these forums I imagined that all members would be capable of acting in a mature fashion and would take advantage of the diverse, intelligent group of people that we have here. I imagined that adults would be capable of acting like adults.

Obviously I was wrong. As a result of recent events I have decided to compile an Aussie Stock Forums code of conduct which will be applied to all members equally. I'm tired of my role as administrator being politicised. I'm not here to take sides, I'm here to enforce the rules of the forum and make this a pleasant place to be for everyone.

As it has always been my intention to create a stock market forum that served the needs of it's members, I'm inviting everyone to make suggestions for the code of conduct.

Tell me what sort of forums YOU want.

I'm all ears!

[money tree]

Hi Joe

I know its tough. I have managed a similar forum for 6 years, and you cant please everyone, and its a thankless labour intensive job that nobody seems to comprehend or appreciate.

Dont think for a minute that I dont appreciate what you have done, or the effort and time you put in, I do. But sadly I cannot respect your methods. You simply do not stick to a set of rules, naming treating offenders equally. here you are now, trying to tell us that is about to change. I dont believe you. tech/a just called me a wanker and you didnt do a bloody thing about it. I am not the first person to complain about preferential treatment.

I have never fired insults like tech/a has (wanker, fool, idiot etc), nor have I made baseless claims like he has. yet somehow, I am made out to be the enemy here. All I have done is stand up for myself, which YOU failed to do. tech/a even admitted he was in the wrong.

We need a set of rules, and more than one person to judge offenders.

[chicken]

NO swaering,stick to the facts,and treat everyone as you would like to be treated...I am sure if I have annything to say...I dont have to call a person by a swear word....BAD language should not be tolerated... :2twocents

[money tree]

hi chicken

I think there is already a filter on swear words, and we havent seen much of it anyway. people like tech/a have used phrases like "pierce off" which offend me. there should be zero tolerance in this regard.

1. no swearing, implied or otherwise

2. no flaming. this means no insults of ANY kind, implied or otherwise. This includes refering to someone as "unsuccesful" or "the idiots" or "happy now precious" and especially direct insults such as "wanker"

more rules:?

also, the more posts someone has the higher the example they should set. they should know better. just because you think you are senior doesnt mean you are above the law.

[RichKid]

Yes I agree that swearing or thinly disguised variations of it should not be allowed. And yes I am aware that Tech has used unpardonable language in the past but I thought he'd taken things on board until some recent posters flared things up again; but I'm sure we don't expect him to remain silent when provoked- but abuse is still abuse.

Basically once the code is written up it should be applied unapologetically to all. If anyone has a complaint perhaps you can refer the post to a moderator or perhaps we can have a sticky 'complaints' thread tucked away in the control panel or somewhere else? Not sure if that'll work but it'll ensure things don't slip by.

Also, sticking to thread is of paramount important- so if someone starts getting personal (playing the man not the ball) it is no longer on thread and that is a no no ; ) Perhaps if people want to have a biff at each other they can do it via private msgs (or preferably on hotcopper). Or we could have a 'biffo' thread where people beat each other up... but that would be silly so I'll ditch it.

Also there should be no one asking blatantly for financial advice, perhaps a new member orientation page would help as some newcomers describe their portfolio and then ask for specific advice, often without searching the forums first or realising that the forums are put in jeopardy by such questions.

[money tree]

a brief history of tech/a vs the "evil-doers":

1. tech/a repeatedly posts with highlights and bold
2. crashy asks tech/a politely to cease
3. tech/a responds with foul language, insults, baseless claims, ego and arrogance. he insists that he can do whatever he likes because he has a track record we should all worship
4. crashy receives no support from other members, nor the moderator, so he takes matters into his own hands, deciding to knock tech/a down a peg or two
5. see step 3
6. crashy receives no support from other members, nor the moderator, and leaves the forum in disgust
7. tech/a responds by admitting he was arrogant and over the top with highlights/bold, but does not apologise
8. new member tulip reads the injustice, and decides to act
9. new member money tree lays low
10. tulip exposes tech/a's system as not as successful as he claimed, but uses insults and accusations
11. Joe blow repremands tulip, but not tech/a
12. money tree exposes tech/a's track record as not as successful as he claimed, but without insults or accusations
13. tech/a loses the plot because he suddenly doesnt have a track record to support his attitude, so he restarts with the insults, foul language, arrogance and "dick measuring"
14. Joe blow loses the plot
15. here we are

[RichKid]

Maybe you guys should have a thread to yourself for comic relief. We others can pop in from time to time to see how silly it is getting.

These are the Aussie 'Stock' Forums, we should be discussing stocks and systems not the people. Tulips questions about Tech's system were fine but then he had to get personal rather than technical about the system and Tech didn't hold back either so now this has got worse. This has got to stop, it's just silly moneytree. I do agree about Crashy, he didn't get much support when he was called names, I hope he comes back, I'm sure he'll appreciate you going in to bat for him. I for one did enjoy Crashy's posts (even the complex ones about derivatives) and I liked his general online demeanour.

Money tree, you do have a sense of humour but does it have to be at the expense of others? You may be exposing yourself to the same sort of criticism that techA is being subject to, he did put some effort into acclimatizing to ASF once the issue was raised. Let's just tone it down a bit, we're not far from having a really great forum.

[tulip]

hey Joe Blow, it's your forum you decide.

Here's a scenario though. Joe Blow, you meet someone at a gathering who has an interest in the market as you do (lets call him Jack), and start a discussion. Now Jack comes across as knowledgeable but quite unpleasant and arrogant. Your discussion has quickly turned into a tutorial, and Jack's manner is extremely condescending toward you. He is dismissive of your thoughts and ideas. Jack is loud and intimidating and everyone at the gathering now notices that you are on the receiving end of ridicule, loud and boorish behaviour. Now there are some at the gathering who realise that this behaviour is a reflection of how Jack sees himself in life, so they tolerate him. Others?

How would you go Joe Blow?

[Joe Blow]

hey Joe Blow, it's your forum you decide.

Here's a scenario though. Joe Blow, you meet someone at a gathering who has an interest in the market as you do (lets call him Jack), and start a discussion. Now Jack comes across as knowledgeable but quite unpleasant and arrogant. Your discussion has quickly turned into a tutorial, and Jack's manner is extremely condescending toward you. He is dismissive of your thoughts and ideas. Jack is loud and intimidating and everyone at the gathering now notices that you are on the receiving end of ridicule, loud and boorish behaviour. Now there are some at the gathering who realise that this behaviour is a reflection of how Jack sees himself in life, so they tolerate him. Others?

How would you go Joe Blow?

If you don't like someone's manner then ignore them. There is even an ignore list in your UserCP options to make it easy.

There is simply no excuse for provocation or personal insults.

I have not seen anything to suggest that tech/a has openly attacked anyone without being provoked first. He has been called "egotistical" and "arrogant", "a big girl" and "the pied piper". And then there was your remark which I won't repeat.

Hopefully once I've posted the code of conduct people will know what it expected of them... and then there will be no excuses.

[dutchie]

Hi Joe

You are in a hard place in the middle of what I would call petty "squabbling" that does no one involved credit.

I have only been a member for a short time and have enjoyed reading the posts (as well as being educated).

This is a great site and I personally would hate to see it degenerate into a forum where people slang off at each other for some percieved injustice etc.

I agree with you and others that you must make up a set of rules that everyone has to abide by, irrespective of their seniority, and if people wish to fluant these rules then they are banned from the site (maybe one or two warnings first - depending upon the offense)

Also it would be a good idea, as mentioned previously, if new members were directed to these rules before they were permitted to post.

I think that it would be necessary to write up the rules and specify a date that they became enforcable so that everyone knew where they stood.

I for one would be happy if you made up the rules and that was that!

Good luck

PS I would be happy to assist in any way.

[tulip]

I absolutely and unreservedly apologise to tech/a for suggesting he has a little d..k!

What was I thinking at the time?

I also apologise to all whom I have offended on this forum for the use of the word d..k and the insensitive manner in which it was presented.

Joe Blow said of my suggestion “And then there was your remark which I won’t repeat” The emotion in his comment would suggest Joe was blushing as he was typing. So on a personal level Joe, please accept my humblest of apologies for putting you through such an embarrassing ordeal.

[Joe Blow]

I absolutely and unreservedly apologise to tech/a for suggesting he has a little d..k!

What was I thinking at the time?

I also apologise to all whom I have offended on this forum for the use of the word d..k and the insensitive manner in which it was presented.

Joe Blow said of my suggestion “And then there was your remark which I won’t repeat” The emotion in his comment would suggest Joe was blushing as he was typing. So on a personal level Joe, please accept my humblest of apologies for putting you through such an embarrassing ordeal.

Tulip,

Your sarcasm has been noted.

Tell me, are you here to talk about the stock market or is it your intention just to be a troll?

[Porper]

When I started these forums I imagined that all members would be capable of acting in a mature fashion and would take advantage of the diverse, intelligent group of people that we have here. I imagined that adults would be capable of acting like adults.

Obviously I was wrong.

I think you need to get tougher Joe, all the posters on here used to be worth listening to, now the forum is growing it is inevitable that we are getting some idiots/timewasters. Nobody other than the people who are involved give a damn about who said what or who did what, they need to grow up and get a life, or of course go to Hotcopper were 90 % of all posts are similar to the ones we have started getting on here.

If it means banning or giving final warnings to people, senior posters included then I am all for it.I think it all needs nipping in the bud or it will get totally out of control.

[money tree]

I have not seen anything to suggest that tech/a has openly attacked anyone without being provoked first.

Well thats interesting. So its ok to attack someone with insults like "wanker" so long as they confront you in a mature professional manner, such as "do you have to be so arrogant?". Joe, I see your defence of my attacker as an insult from you.

So I guess your management skills are limited to "ok who threw the first punch" instead of "break this fight up NOW, both of you are in trouble"

I gotta say, thats no way to run a forum. You are pretty much asking for fights to keep going. In my opinion things have spiralled out of control because you let tech/a get away with murder.

Lets see if tech/a is as big a man as the bank account he shoves in our face. I would fall over backwards if he ever apologised. Thanks to tulip for leading the way.

personally I have not gotten personal with tech/a so I dont see any reason to apologise. If anyone feels I need to apologise for anything, say the word.

Also tech/a and forum members, you might like to ask yourself a serious question:

why is it that the only two members here with formal finance qualifications are the only two people with tech/a in their sights? perhaps they see something the rest of us with less experience dont?

ps. I dont see tulips last comment as sarcasm, more tounge in cheek. His apology to tech/a was believeable and that last comment was simply intended as a "did we all have to take everything so seriously?"

I am sure tulip has more to offer this forum than anyone. The question is, will he?

[Joe Blow]

Well thats interesting. So its ok to attack someone with insults like "wanker" so long as they confront you in a mature professional manner, such as "do you have to be so arrogant?". Joe, I see your defence of my attacker as an insult from you.

You can see it however you like. Do I think you provoked tech/a? Yes. Do I think he responded in the best, most appropriate way? No. So what did you do? You raised the ante and kept baiting him. Are you telling me that you are incapable of seeing how you were perpetuating a cycle of petty provocation and name calling?


personally I have not gotten personal with tech/a so I dont see any reason to apologise. If anyone feels I need to apologise for anything, say the word.

You did get personal. You accused him of having multiple usernames. You called him 'arrogant' and 'egotistical'. You accused him of having a 'selfish agenda' for posting here and called him a 'big girl', amongst other things. So don't say that you didn't make it personal.

As for apologies, I don't remember asking you to apologise. In fact, I don't remember even giving you a warning, even though you provoked tech/a and participated in the name calling. Why? Because I had given tech/a the same leeway because he had been baited. I was hoping you two would take the mature option and sort things out amongst yourselves. Obviously I was wrong on that one too.

As it happens, it appears that tech/a may not be returning to the forums, so it'll be interesting to see what happens from here. I don't hold grudges, if you are prepared to abide by the forum rules then you are welcome to stay. If not, then I'd appeciate it if you let me know now.


I am sure tulip has more to offer this forum than anyone. The question is, will he?

I agree he has a lot to offer the forum. If he can do it without uttering obscenities then he's welcome to stay.

Joe

[stockgod]

Guys this needs to stop now. Lets start both with a clean slate and if it continues then they should get the boot. Joe's doing a great job, lets leave it at that.

Note to Joe. You cant spend this amount of time on one little petty fight, you will get burnt out with this forum with in 6 months.

I have a suggestion on how to moderate this site, put a tool on every post where people can bring your attention to any misbehavior (a black flag if you like) Once a post is black flaged then you are able to either delete take no action or even bar that person. I know what some people will say after reading this but at the end of the day, joe you have the final say.

here is a link about what i am talking about (please look up in the right hand top side).

http://melbourne.craigslist.org/clt/58044064.html

[Joe Blow]

Money Tree,

I accidentally edited your post instead of replying to it, so I had to delete it. Sometimes having administrator powers can be a curse, especially when you press the wrong button after a couple of beers. You are welcome to recreate or resummarize it in another post if you like so don't start screaming at me about censorship. It was an accident. Sorry.

But stockgod is right, I am wasting far too much energy on this particular conflict. As far as I'm concerned it is now over. I should have a code of conduct up on the site by the end of the weekend or shortly thereafter and after that it is going to be one warning then a ban. I am only interested in members who are prepared to conduct themselves in a mature, respectful manner.

I'll leave the trolls, troublemakers and timewasters to the other forums. They can have them. The reason I started these forums is because I wanted to create a place that was different. I lost sight of that for a moment and I'm not quite sure why... but it won't happen again.

[Joe Blow]

I have a suggestion on how to moderate this site, put a tool on every post where people can bring your attention to any misbehavior (a black flag if you like) Once a post is black flaged then you are able to either delete take no action or even bar that person. I know what some people will say after reading this but at the end of the day, joe you have the final say.

here is a link about what i am talking about (please look up in the right hand top side).

http://melbourne.craigslist.org/clt/58044064.html

Stockgod... there is one. See the little 'danger' symbol up near the post number in the top right hand corner of each post.

If you click that it should take you to a 'report bad post' form.

:)

[stockgod]

thanks joe, is there any way to make it stand out a bit more?????

[Joe Blow]

thanks joe, is there any way to make it stand out a bit more?????

I don't think so, but I will look into it for you.

[tulip]

Just found an absoute diamond of a quote among an excellent thread that tech/a started.

"Ive mellowed over the years as I UNDERSTOOD that not everyone will choose that which Ive chosen."

I'm speechless!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :goodnight

[money tree]

Perhaps that means that he gave up trying to change everyones religion, which begs the question.....why was he trying to do that?

so this is the mellow version of tech/a. wow.....

HAPPY BDAY JOE

[tulip]

tech/a has commented "For me trading is only a small % of my business dealings and if the market tanks Ill be more concerned about other things than my portfolio."

Let's assume the small percentage tech/a is talking about is say 5%
(is that reasonable?). I'm sure he mentioned making millions on the market. lets assume he made a paltry million last year. If this represents 5%, then the other 95% must be (2 divided by 5, carry the one ..... take away the hypotenuese and square the inverse ..... thinking out load here) $19 million, making his profit $20 million for last year.

We are priveleged to have him here. And before you go on about sarcasm Joe, I'm truly grateful that someone who is probably on the BRW Rich List takes the time to educate us poor mugs. I wouldn't mind some of his input regarding how to run a successful business.

[Joe Blow]

Tulip,

This thread is about the code of conduct, not tech/a or his other threads.

Now are you here to contribute in a positive way or are you here to play puerile personality games?

Give it up, or find somewhere else to play.

No more warnings.

[Joe Blow]

Draft of Aussie Stock Forums code of conduct:

1. Aussie Stock Forums was established and is built around the concepts of mutual respect and the free exchange of information and knowledge for the benefit of all.

2. All members will treat other members with the utmost respect at all times. This means insults, name calling, personal attacks and the abuse of other members in any way are strictly forbidden. Please, treat other members as you yourself would wish to be treated. Offenders will be warned once and then have their account suspended from Aussie Stock Forums for a period of time to be determind by the administrator.

3. Obscene language and the use of language that is sexist, racist, harassing or threatening is stricly forbidden and will not be tolerated.

4. Please do not ask for financial advice on Aussie Stock Forums. It is illegal for anyone other than a licensed financial advisor to give you financial advice. Aussie Stock Forums is intended soley for the open discussion of stockmarket related topics.

5. Please keep all threads ON TOPIC. If you feel like going off on a tangent, start another thread! Off topic posts may be deleted by the administrator or forum moderators.

6. You, and you alone, are responsible for the content of your posts. Any information that you post must be true or accurate to the best of your knowledge. If you are unsure of the accuracy of any information, your post should include the appropriate qualifications. Keep in mind that you may be liable for anything that you say that may be defamatory, threatening or that contravenes securities law.

7. Aussie Stock Forums must not be used for any illegal activity, including the breach of copyright or privacy legislation. It is forbidden for any member to post personal information about another member anywhere on Aussie Stock Forums.

8. You are forbidden to use Aussie Stock Forums for commercial activity of any kind without receiving prior permission from the administrator. This includes the use of affiliate referral codes.

9. Please be aware that it is impossible for Aussie Stock Forums to confirm the identities of it's members and that some members may misrepresent themselves, their holdings or their qualifications for the purposes of fraud and/or financial gain.

10. You grant Aussie Stock Forums a perpetual license to disseminate, republish, reprint or display, in any form, any content you post on Aussie Stock Forums without any obligation to notify you, assign credit or compensate you in any way.

11. If you believe a member has violated any of these codes of conduct, has breached the Aussie Stock Forums terms and conditions or has posted in violation of securities law, please contact the administrator of this site immediately at abuse@aussiestockforums.com

I welcome your comments and/or suggestions. :)

[doctorj]

I think these codes are a good start in forming a guide on what is and is not acceptable on these forums.

I do have to ask though, why is number 10 worded in such the way as it is, infact why do you believe it necessary at all? Reproducing someone's work without a reference is plagurism and to my knowledge, a breach of copyright law. Any post will remain the property of the author, irrespective of any condition to the contrary as long as the party seeking to reproduce the article without credit does not enter into a contract with the owner to the contrary.

[Joe Blow]

I think these codes are a good start in forming a guide on what is and is not acceptable on these forums.

I do have to ask though, why is number 10 worded in such the way as it is, infact why do you believe it necessary at all? Reproducing someone's work without a reference is plagurism and to my knowledge, a breach of copyright law. Any post will remain the property of the author, irrespective of any condition to the contrary as long as the party seeking to reproduce the article without credit does not enter into a contract with the owner to the contrary.

doctorj,

I do not have the contact details of any Aussie Stock Forums members because it is not required in the registration process, so it is not possible to notify or properly credit a member - particularly an inactive member - if their post is to be reproduced on another site via, say, an RSS feed (which is a form of syndication). See here for details on RSS feeds: http://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/faq.php?faq=vb_board_usage#faq_vb_rss_syndication

You'll find a disclaimer of this sort on most forums.

[doctorj]

Do the RSS feeds reproduce the whole post or just the subject line? Do they produce the pseudonym the poster operates under? I'd argue that crediting the pseudonym is sufficient.

I doubt I have anything to say which is of value, but I was curious as to why you might have included it in the code when you were presumably writing it from scratch. That said, the idea that a condition of posting to this site being that it may be reproduced as your own, potentially for a profit is a little concerning. Not saying you would, but to me that is the purpose of such a clause.

At worst, I'm playing devil's advocate. I do think that in this case it's important the point is raised, as I very much doubt that the clause would be binding.

[Joe Blow]

Do the RSS feeds reproduce the whole post or just the subject line? Do they produce the pseudonym the poster operates under? I'd argue that crediting the pseudonym is sufficient.

I doubt I have anything to say which is of value, but I was curious as to why you might have included it in the code when you were presumably writing it from scratch. That said, the idea that a condition of posting to this site being that it may be reproduced as your own, potentially for a profit is a little concerning. Not saying you would, but to me that is the purpose of such a clause.

doctorj,

I haven't actually experimented with RSS feeds but I'm certain they would include the post title and username. I will look into it anyway.

Let me assure you that I would never allow a post here on Aussie Stock Forums to EVER be credited to me (unless it was mine), nor do I intend to publish "Aussie Stock Forums: The Complete Posts" for profit! ;)

The disclaimer is just a way of saying the content of your post may be seen on other sites and you won't be notified or paid.

[doctorj]

If it credits the poster, you don't intend to represent the ideas as your own and you don't want to profit from it, the entire clause is pretty redundant =)

[Jett_Star]

dr j chill

such clauses are standard procedure in the public domain

[tulip]

What about people who come on and mis-represent themselves deliberately or by inference which leads to new members (of which we have all been at one stage or another) being seduced into an investment strategy or tips, that they don’t understand and that ultimately will cost them their investment capital or worse. Caveat Emptor doesn’t or morally shouldn’t apply in this case, and I’m not talking about physically paying for something here.

Your draft set of rules covers everybody from any sort of insult, but they do not cover those people new to the sharemarket from charlatans. I can stand up for myself, but can our newest members looking for advice? You will be legally covered but morally?

My suggestions are:

1) At your discretion suspend a member for a period of time, never ban them for life.
2) Suspend a poster if there are say 10 or more complaints, and publish the names (nics) of the complainents should a suspension take place. Most forums are controlled by a few (hmmm) to the frustration of the majority. This will ensure that those who could destroy the fabric of the forum are evicted (maybe I’m one of them) but also that vendettas (you need numbers) do not occur. Once again, do not suspend anyone for life.

No matter what happens the control is firmly in your hands but also influenced by your members.

[stockgod]

Lets have a sin bin, Where ppl get a ban with a count down clock next to there name. once its back to zero then they may post again.

[tech/a]

Tulip.
I wouldn't mind some of his input regarding how to run a successful business.

Happy to help.

(1)Dont under estimate your competition.
(2)Dont flame the competition.
(3)Dont mistake silence for weakness.
(4)If you have a code of conduct LIVE by it as it can work both for and against you.
(5)Business is Business.
(6)Get the NUMBERS right!
(6a)Get your staff right!
(7)Borrow only when you CAN not when you HAVE TO.
(8)Who's the smarter the expert or he with a degree or he who employs them!
(9)There are 2 biggies in life ,BIRTH and DEATH everything else fills in the time in between.
(10)Let your successes be your mouth piece.
(11)The more you give the more youll recieve.
(12)He with the biggest mouth has the smallest wallet.
(13)Dont worry about how to recognise a professional he'll tell you.
(14)Respect is earnt and cannot be demanded.
(15)DO IT.
(16)Dont be afraid to stand alone-------its the best company you can get!
(17)Winners keep their winners losers keep their losers.
(18)Make a habit of finding successful people and picking their brains.(regardless of their type of success)


tech

[tulip]

(1)Dont under estimate your competition.
Fair enuff
(2)Dont flame the competition.
Huh?
(3)Dont mistake silence for weakness.
Huh?
(4)If you have a code of conduct LIVE by it as it can work both for and against you.
Huh?
(5)Business is Business.
Huh?
(6)Get the NUMBERS right!
OK
(6a)Get your staff right!
OK
(7)Borrow only when you CAN not when you HAVE TO.
It all depends what the funds will be used for.
(8)Who's the smarter the expert or he with a degree or he who employs them!
How do you monitor and set performance targets for a qualified staff member unless you have some understanding of their area of expertise.
(9)There are 2 biggies in life ,BIRTH and DEATH everything else fills in the time in between.
OK
(10)Let your successes be your mouth piece.
Not if your in marketing, which we all are.
(11)The more you give the more youll recieve.
Yup
(12)He with the biggest mouth has the smallest wallet.
Greg Norman would probably disagree with that statement!
(13)Dont worry about how to recognise a professional he'll tell you.
Get that chip off your shoulder pal!
(14)Respect is earnt and cannot be demanded.
Grade 1 stuff
(15)DO IT.
Think Nike beat you to the punch
(16)Dont be afraid to stand alone-------its the best company you can get!
Bit like your sex life eh?
(17)Winners keep their winners losers keep their losers.
OK
(18)Make a habit of finding successful people and picking their brains.(regardless of their type of success)
Not quite there old chum. You need to have a broad understanding of the subject matter to get value from successful people.

You appear to dislike professionals, and believe that by using and manipulating and picking their brains you can have the benefit of the education they have, just by throwing money at them. In addition to their qualifications, they have life experiences that you don’t (as you have life experiences that they don’t). Ask yourself, could the reverse happen and these professional be as successful in your business (which is fireign to them) as you are in your business simply by hiring someone with your qualifications.

[tech/a]

As I thought your question was tounge in cheek!
As is your reply.

Moving on.

[tulip]

Out of your depth I'd suggest.

[tech/a]

Yup clearly no match for me.
Your postings preceed you.
Now where is that shrinks phone number.
He'll love the Problem with professionals issue!

[doctorj]

You both need to build a bridge.

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of this crap. It's time to start showing some level of maturity.

[stockgod]

number 19, if you dont know what you are talking about surround your self with ppl who know what you are talking about. A good accountant and lawyer will make you millions if you use them in the right way.

[tulip]

You win tech/a I'm outta here.

[stockgod]

Close the door on the way out.