Hey folks,
I've been following Tech's threads on positive expectancy and risk management etc. I note it's similar to Van Tharp's popular book (from my first look at it anyway). Found Tech's stuff a bit hard going as I'm a newbie so thinking of doing some extra reading on it to get a better grip on things so I can follow his thread and get myself a good plan.
So has anyone read Tharp's book and implemented the plans/techniques mentioned in it?
TechA, is your method (as discussed in your threads) different to his or is it the same concept?
Lucifer_au
19th-January-2005, 01:13 AM
I've been reading and listening to Van Tharp's different products and the material seems to be quite good. I don't trade (as really I'm doing well enough in property, plus also I would rather use any capital/funds to go back into my property to build a very solid foundation), but I do find it quite interesting and my aim is probably to start trading (probably options) within 2-3yrs (after my knowledge has built up a bit).
Anyway heres some free resource of Van Tharp’s: http://www.yourproductteam.com/vti/tutorials.htm
He also has a good newsletter you can signup to, as well as his forum:
http://www.mastermindforum.com/phorum/list.php?f=9 (US site, so for Aussie info - Stay on the AussieStockForums).
His latest book (Safe Strategies For Financial Freedom) is quite good, it talks about, in more simplistic terms, money management, postion sizing, etc, though the book is primarily concerned with financial freedom. It’s certainly less technical than his trade your way to financial freedom (which lost me at the half way point). Check out Amazons review of it first, some people like it, some people are disappointed with it http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0071421475/qid=1106057504/sr=8-1/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/002-6443250-3444847?v=glance&s=books&n=507846
In the same book he talks about mutual fund trading in the US (where instead of stocks, mutual funds are traded). I am sure the same ideas are applicable to Aust. And I've been meaning to research this more.
Anyway hope I've somehow contributed to this discussion..... :)
Rgds.
Lucifer_au
RichKid
19th-January-2005, 10:02 AM
Hi Lucifer,
Thanks for the great links, must have a look at it soon. It was WayneL and TechA that first got me interested in this aspect of things and with TechA's threads running I'm trying to get my trading in order. Only had very basic risk magmt in effect till now and have only had quick looks at Louise Bedford and Chris Tate's approaches. Bedford highly recommends Van Tharp in her books and Guppy seems to give him a good wrap too, except Guppy's 'Better Trading' book is supposed to take a different approach to position sizing etc. Van Tharp's appears to be the most comprehensive book although I have to read Guppy as well. It's the maths and spreadsheets that I'll have to get my head around. It would feel like a business or accountancy practice once I know how to use and collate all those trading figures.
I did see the new Van Tharp book on Financial Freedom but it just has a collection of different strategies to make money, with a smaller section on trading than his earlier book.
Anyway, glad to see you're doing well with property, if you are starting in stocks, if my experience is anything to go by it may be best to start with midcap to large cap shares to get a feel for the thing and then go into derivatives like options and warrants, at least until you get the hang of it.
Hope to hear more from you once you get into shares!
(TechA- I'm still interested in hearing your views as mentioned in the first post, hope you have time to reply, either here or in another thread.)
RichKid
20th-January-2005, 03:01 PM
Anyway heres some free resource of Van Tharp’s: http://www.yourproductteam.com/vti/tutorials.htm
Lucifer, Thanks again for that link, it's brief but is very succinct and to the point, a great tutorial imo, it's a shame they don't have more but I guess it's to introduce us to their theory and the other products. Much appreciated all the same!
oski
27th-January-2005, 08:42 AM
Van Tarp book is good but you have to remember that half of the books written by US authors imply to trading style and formulas for people with capital of millions of dollars.
People who run big investments houses.
:)
RichKid
27th-January-2005, 11:30 AM
Hi Oski,
Thanks for the tip, I was under the impression it applied to smaller investors too but do note your point about undercapitalisation- TechA makes that point very strongly in his posts and I'm going to have to make sure I understand its importance in the strategy.
Jesse Livermore
12th-April-2005, 02:39 AM
I found a free eBook:
Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom, by Van K. Tharp. Just click on the link below.
I found another free eBook: Trading for a Living, Alexander Elder.
Just click on the link below:
http://www.users.on.net/~mindwarp/Alexander%20Elder%20-%20Trading%20for%20a%20living.pdf
RichKid
14th-April-2005, 12:43 PM
Been reading Van Tharp, wish he'd provide more detailed info with figures and methods on building a system, I know you can get it via his expensive courses but a bit more info in his book would have been good. His special money mgmt report is good but I don't think he explains the concepts as simply as he could.
keebab
24th-April-2005, 07:32 PM
Cheers for the links Jesse, Trade your Way to Financial Freedom is quite an interesting read. We should set some individual topics once everyone has read it.
Cheers
Mick
tech/a
24th-April-2005, 08:05 PM
Rich.
Sorry just saw this thread. I suppose an answer back in January would have been better.
Van Tharps methodology(Money Management principals) are applicable to ANY trading system or method. Be it mechanical or discretionary.
The application of those principals are most definately used in the developement of T/T.
VanTharp doesn't disclose a trading method rather the principals of sound money management which will ensure profit.
The way YOU apply those M/M principals in the end will be chosen by the trader.
Its basically very simple ---Cut Losses and let Profits run---
I'm happy to work with you and all here in developing another method which we can test and trade live like we have been doing with T/T for the last 3 yrs.
Starting from scratch and introducing many of Van Tharps principles.
For ideas on Systems Developement I suggest
Trading Systems and Methods by Kaufman a degree in Mathmatics is handy!
(I dont have one--unfortunately My son Kris fortunately has one).
The Encyclopedia of Technical Market Indicators by Colby is another gold mine.
I'm off again in June for a few weeks to Singapore but happy to get things kicked off if there is a decent interest.
A larger interest gives better feedback and more minds participating.
If there are also other Amibroker or Metastock/Tradesim users around that will also be a great help.
Anyway Rich Ill leave it to you to kick it off.
Did you get my snail mail? and is all OK.
RichKid
24th-April-2005, 10:22 PM
Rich.
Sorry just saw this thread,I suppose an answer back in Janurary would have been better.
Van Tharps methodology(Money Management principals) are applicable to ANY trading system or method.Be it mechanical or discretionary.
The application of those principals are most definately used in the developement of T/T.
VanTharp doenst disclose a trading method rather the principals of sound moneymanagement which will ensure profit.
The way YOU apply those M/M principals in the end will be chosen by the trader.
Its basically very simple--- Cut Losses and let Profits run---.
Im happy to work with you and all here in developing another method which we can test and trade live like we have been doing with T/T for the last 3 yrs.
Starting from scratch and introducing many of Van Tharps principals.
For ideas on Systems Developement I suggest
Trading Systems and Methods by Kuafman a degree in Mathmatics is handy!
(I dont have one--unfortunately My son Kris fortunately has one).
The Encyclopedia of Technical Market Indicators by Colby is another gold mine.
Im off again in June for a few weeks to Singapore but happy to get things kicked off if there is a decient interest.
A larger interest gives better feedback and more minds participating.
If there are also other Amibroker or Metastock/Tradesim users around that will also be a great help.
Anyway Rich Ill leave it to you to kick it off.
Did you get my snail mail? and is all OK.
Thanks Tech for the great post, good to see you back, nice and refreshed I hope! yes did get the snail mail, thanks.
I saw a book recently by Penfold on trading the SPI. It sets out this structure, referred to as the 'holy trinity':
Money mgmt; Set up & method for trading that set up (trade plan); psychology.
Clearly with a mechnical system it's the middle bit that gets discussed alot. I'm trying to look at the first bit in isolation first (but obviously we need a system to use it with for examples).
I have tried to read Ryan Jones (the trading game) but it's hard going but he introduces some great concepts. Van Tharp is good but as you mention he doesn't tell us all (you need to buy his cd's and other 'porducts' to get a run down). So many futures trading books on money mgmt but few for non-leveraged (eg non-margined) traders like me- not sure what the difference is as they keep talking in 'contracts' rather than a portfolio of diverse stocks.
Still trawling through VAn tharp here but I'm slowly becoming familiar with it. Your expectancy thread (3% thread) is great too, no sure how we're to split up the topics. It's not easy getting up to speed to participate fully in the thread so we may have to be patient and take it a week or month at a time until the learning curve steepens. Each person has their own requirements but perhaps we can discuss the common elements here re MM. Personally I'm looking at a mainly disrcretionary system at present, stocks first culled from tips and fundamentals using charting for the final decision, I trade from a few days to a few months but rarely more. It's the money mgmt which can stand alone here for discussion.
Basically, how do share traders achieve geometric growth while avoiding or minimising asymmetric leverage? Assumption is use of some form of anti-martingale MM. How can we stop that equity curve from becoming too unruly and avoid ruin? These are the types of questions I need to understand via learning the math- which is what I'm trying to do. I'll share what I learn and can understand here on ASF. If any of you out there come across good (I Mean really good) books please mention it here. Jesse for example has kindly posted links to books. The Van Tharp money mgmt report book has p26 missing btw, not really important. IMHO Jones explains some of Van Tharps concepts far better, it's the maths that does me in as I can't translate it to share portfolios yet.
Hence the Van Tharps tutes mentioned earlier were helpful (re expectancy calculations etc) but they don't tell you all and is different to the Ryan Jones fixed ratio explanation.
Simple questions include- do we use a core equity model or something else? What are the differences? Anyone is welcome to contribute if they have expertise or helpful info.
Thanks Tech for offering your time and experience, I'll try to have my future posts a bit more structured than the one above. Maybe we need a new thread if we are really to wade into this?? Or should we discuss various aspects or chapters of VAn tharp?? Suggestions?? I'm keen to just start a thread on Ryan Jones's method and its application to share trading- any views tech/WayneL or others who are actually employing money mgmt successfully? If not might take me a year or two to complete my research (I might have to use some old highschool textbooks and learn stats too!!!).
See this thread for some links to free books, including The Trading Game: http://www.aussiestockforums.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1170
tech/a
25th-April-2005, 07:45 AM
Rich a couple of things.
Trading futures or atleast developing positive expectancy models to trade, is easier than designing a method for trading a portfolio of stocks.
Simply your dealing with ONE entity not a potfolio of 10 or more and a universe of 100s.
You can also OPTIMISE your methodology on a singular entity.Not so on a portfolio as one optimisation for one isnt the same for another.
This can be done for a singular stock in a stand alone tradig method. (But thats another topic).
I think your choice of trading in a discretionary manner is a common error.
If you look carefully at your reason for this "Idea" Im sure youll be honest with yourself and say that by trading in a discretionary manner you have thet "False" sence of security that you can---react to the market to better enter and lock in profit--
Infact this is probably one of THE reasons that most fail.
There well laid plans of action become reactionary Guessing of market action.
You cannot test positive expectancy of a discretionary method either so your never going to be sure of profitability.
It really is SIMPLE.
This is ALL you need in any trading method.
An Entry
An Exit
A Stop
A postitive expectancy.
RichKid
25th-April-2005, 01:44 PM
Rich a couple of things.
Trading futures or atleast developing positive expectancy models to trade, is easier than designing a method for trading a portfolio of stocks.
Simply your dealing with ONE entity not a potfolio of 10 or more and a universe of 100s.
You can also OPTIMISE your methodology on a singular entity.Not so on a portfolio as one optimisation for one isnt the same for another.
This can be done for a singular stock in a stand alone tradig method. (But thats another topic).
I think your choice of trading in a discretionary manner is a common error.
If you look carefully at your reason for this "Idea" Im sure youll be honest with yourself and say that by trading in a discretionary manner you have thet "False" sence of security that you can---react to the market to better enter and lock in profit--
Infact this is probably one of THE reasons that most fail.
There well laid plans of action become reactionary Guessing of market action.
You cannot test positive expectancy of a discretionary method either so your never going to be sure of profitability.
It really is SIMPLE.
This is ALL you need in any trading method.
An Entry
An Exit
A Stop
A postitive expectancy.
So does the increase in contracts for single markets mean they pyramid? Ryan Jones describes how you can trade a portfolio of stocks but I can't understand it yet. Will keep trying.
Very good points there about discretionary methods- I am having trouble 'testing' it, no wonder, I realised there were too many variables in my decision making (read 'far too discretinary'). I did and probably still do think that I have 'control' over things by being discretionary but I'm trying to get out of it. It's my 'perception' of what is happening in the market that is not a characteristic shared by a mechanical system. Food for thought. Lots more thinking for me now!
Maybe I'll have to find a particular universe of stocks, find 'mechanical' filters for narrowing it down, (eg if a gold stock leveraged to pog don't enter when pog is falling/sideways- check via comparing charts) and trade only certain 'reliable' patterns/set ups or if certain criteria are met (eg market cap or tipped by a particular tipsheet with a good record as a 'star performer')- that would take some of the discretion out of it?? There must be successful discretionary traders out there. Backtesting alone doesn't help as the future can't be backtested imo but in futures I suppose it's different as commodities may have more reliable cycles/patterns. Looking quickly at my current data I only need a small percentage of winners with speccies as long as I cut losses and lock in the profits etc as you mention in the first three points.
Your four points are great, I realise that even with my discretionary system if I'd had proper rules for entry/exit I'd still be ahead. Hence my brief breather from the market while I update my plans so that I don't have to 'think' about what to do since I'll have simple rules in place. Positive expectancy is the big issue for me now. Okay, time for me to get back to more work with my numbers...
Fortunately MM concepts can be fine tuned without worrying too much about the trading system.
mit
6th-July-2005, 03:55 PM
I have tried to read Ryan Jones (the trading game) but it's hard going but he introduces some great concepts. Van Tharp is good but as you mention he doesn't tell us all (you need to buy his cd's and other 'porducts' to get a run down). So many futures trading books on money mgmt but few for non-leveraged (eg non-margined) traders like me- not sure what the difference is as they keep talking in 'contracts' rather than a portfolio of diverse stocks.
Besides the audience in America being Commodity traders another reason is that position sizing for futures is more complicated.
For example the most common (but not always the best) money management technique is fixed fractional. This is where you look at your entry price and your stop and buy enough shares so that loss is a fixed percentage of your capital most usually 1-2%.
So if you have 100k you may risk 2% on a trade which is $2000. If your stop is 20 cents from your entry you then buy 2000/0.20 or 10,000 shares. If you portfolio goes up to 101k then you can buy 10,100 shares.
Future contracts are harder. The minimum movement (pip) for our dear old SPI is $25 per contract. If your stop is 20 pips you would lose $500 per contract. So with $100k and 2% risk you can buy 4 contracts. However, as you can't buy a part of a contract you would need to have $125k to be able to have 5 contracts. If you lose $1k to 99k you could only have 3 contracts. As shares are 1c a pip or less you don't get this problem.
So some of the stuff in money management texts is a way of getting around this problem. If you can filter this out then the rest is applicable to shares.
MIT
RichKid
6th-July-2005, 04:28 PM
Besides the audience in America being Commodity traders another reason is that position sizing for futures is more complicated.
For example the most common (but not always the best) money management technique is fixed fractional. This is where you look at your entry price and your stop and buy enough shares so that loss is a fixed percentage of your capital most usually 1-2%.
So if you have 100k you may risk 2% on a trade which is $2000. If your stop is 20 cents from your entry you then buy 2000/0.20 or 10,000 shares. If you portfolio goes up to 101k then you can buy 10,100 shares.
Future contracts are harder. The minimum movement (pip) for our dear old SPI is $25 per contract. If your stop is 20 pips you would lose $500 per contract. So with $100k and 2% risk you can buy 4 contracts. However, as you can't buy a part of a contract you would need to have $125k to be able to have 5 contracts. If you lose $1k to 99k you could only have 3 contracts. As shares are 1c a pip or less you don't get this problem.
So some of the stuff in money management texts is a way of getting around this problem. If you can filter this out then the rest is applicable to shares.
MIT
Thanks MIT for the clear explanation, very helpful and makes sense, especially about the smaller ticks in stocks alleviating the problem for us small timers. I'd figured out a bit of it after going through the tables of numbers Ryan Jones' book had but I still can't get the bit where pyramiding comes in. I know his approach is a bit of a hybrid of fixed fractional and somehthing else (ie levels at which he increases and decreases contracts- he gives formulae as well) but I still have to figure out the portfolio part of it as it applies to shares. Ryan Jones says increasing contracts is not the same as pyramiding so I've got to get that sorted out in my mind too, back to reading for me!
BTW, there is a small typo in one of the coin flipping tables at the end of the book (or so I think)- just a minor issue.
iTrader
27th-July-2005, 08:42 AM
Hi, I'm a long time reader but first time poster. Thank you for sharing your wonderful finding with us Jesse.
I'm in the process of reading "Trade your way to financial freedom" by Tharp Van K. I noticed Foreword was written by David Mobley, Sr. Mobley had made headlines back in 2000. He conceived and carried out a US$59 million fraud on the investors. Mobley has consented to an asset freeze and preliminary injunctions and to cooperate with the Commission in preserving investor assets. In addition, the Commission's complaint seeks compensation.
Tech
Does this book do as much as Tharp's $1000 home study course? Basically, I want to know if I should invest the $1000 in Tharp's course.
Thanks in advance of your advice.
qaz
10th-November-2006, 01:14 PM
I just bought Tharp's - Trade your way to financial freedom book yesterday. Seems good so far
tech/a
10th-November-2006, 01:20 PM
Tech
Does this book do as much as Tharp's $1000 home study course? Basically, I want to know if I should invest the $1000 in Tharp's course.
Thanks in advance of your advice.
I havent seen the Course but read the book so cant comment on the course itself.
Personally I'd invest in education with Nick Radge.
He's in Aust,a straight shooter.More experience than most educators.
Has a great support instrument through his site and WILL show you the way to Profit in the market. You'll have access to a real person not just a course.
Email him and ask what he can offer.
Set out what you want to achieve as specifically as you can and I'm sure nick will have something that will suit.
Here I can speak from experience---best I've seen by a mile.
RichKid
10th-November-2006, 01:24 PM
This is a must have in your library.
http://www.amazon.com/Trading-Game-Playing-Numbers-Millions/dp/0471316989
In relation to The Trading Game by Ryan Jones- search elsewhere on ASF for links to an ebook version.
Bin57again
10th-November-2006, 01:27 PM
I've seen Radge's site and know he's (1) genuine; (2) well regarded. His service seems more appropriate for learning how to enter discretionary trades. How do you build a positive expectancy or system from his advice? How does it work? Do you follow each of his thoughts or do you get an idea of how he trades and try and learn from that?
On the Tharp issue, this is the link for his course. I'm wondering whether anyone has used it? $1000 is a lot but you know what? Time is my biggest enemy. I've been trying to put together so many of the items discussed above by RichKid and others over the last 2 years. The penny finally dropped that the least important element is entry. Tharp's course seems a snip at $1000 when you think most systems could give you that back in days.
http://www.iitm.com/products/systapes/trading-system-home-study.htm
RichKid
10th-November-2006, 01:55 PM
I've seen Radge's site and know he's (1) genuine; (2) well regarded. His service seems more appropriate for learning how to enter discretionary trades. How do you build a positive expectancy or system from his advice? How does it work? Do you follow each of his thoughts or do you get an idea of how he trades and try and learn from that?
On the Tharp issue, this is the link for his course. I'm wondering whether anyone has used it? $1000 is a lot but you know what? Time is my biggest enemy. I've been trying to put together so many of the items discussed above by RichKid and others over the last 2 years. The penny finally dropped that the least important element is entry. Tharp's course seems a snip at $1000 when you think most systems could give you that back in days.
http://www.iitm.com/products/systapes/trading-system-home-study.htm
My understanding is that Radge has extensive experience in systems trading, not just discretionary trading, although he explains the money and risk mgmt of the latter better than anyone else on ASF imo, just speak to Radge and see what he says or buy his Adaptive Analysis first and see the thread on his book here on ASF. Good luck Binh and don't be eager to part with your hard earned capital so easily!!
It's Snake Pliskin
10th-November-2006, 02:20 PM
I've seen Radge's site and know he's (1) genuine; (2) well regarded. His service seems more appropriate for learning how to enter discretionary trades. How do you build a positive expectancy or system from his advice? How does it work? Do you follow each of his thoughts or do you get an idea of how he trades and try and learn from that?
On the Tharp issue, this is the link for his course. I'm wondering whether anyone has used it? $1000 is a lot but you know what? Time is my biggest enemy. I've been trying to put together so many of the items discussed above by RichKid and others over the last 2 years. The penny finally dropped that the least important element is entry. Tharp's course seems a snip at $1000 when you think most systems could give you that back in days.
http://www.iitm.com/products/systapes/trading-system-home-study.htm
Bin,
Mr Tharp has probably been my biggest influence, as I have done extensive reading and research on what the guy offers. Regarding his courses, I did not even consider them due to the cost element. His book is good, but there is a lot more you can get without buying his courses - please think about that. I do believe his courses would be very good quality though. Importantly you should read his special report on money management even if you have to buy it - though some of it may not be simple to follow; some is not relevant to the AUS market either. Mr Radge has been a big influence too.
I've seen Radge's site and know he's (1) genuine; (2) well regarded. His service seems more appropriate for learning how to enter discretionary trades. How do you build a positive expectancy or system from his advice? How does it work? Do you follow each of his thoughts or do you get an idea of how he trades and try and learn from that?
On the Tharp issue, this is the link for his course. I'm wondering whether anyone has used it? $1000 is a lot but you know what? Time is my biggest enemy. I've been trying to put together so many of the items discussed above by RichKid and others over the last 2 years. The penny finally dropped that the least important element is entry. Tharp's course seems a snip at $1000 when you think most systems could give you that back in days.
http://www.iitm.com/products/systapes/trading-system-home-study.htm
I have know Nick for around 10 yrs.
I can assure you there are few who understand expectancy more than Nick.
Let me also assure you that Nick wont trade anything without a proven expectancy. Where can you get advice from an ex Floor trader CBOT,London and SFE who lives in Australia.
Start simply with a "Positive Expectancy" with regard to Nicks ability as an educator.
Simply ask him how to design your trading around a positive expectancy.
Pay the man and the rest will be up to you to implement!
Bet you get the cost of education back 10 fold in quick time. I did!!! (actually its around 250x).
RichKid
10th-November-2006, 02:27 PM
Bin,
Mr Tharp has probably been my biggest influence, as I have done extensive reading and research on what the guy offers. Regarding his courses, I did not even consider them due to the cost element. His book is good, but there is a lot more you can get without buying his courses - please think about that. I do believe his courses would be very good quality though. Importantly you should read his special report on money management even if you have to buy it - though some of it may not be simple to follow; some is not relevant to the AUS market either. Mr Radge has been a big influence too.
Snake speaks the truth about the cost of the courses Bin! ;) I found those video tutes really helpful as well, very simple. Also look for the 'free stuff' thread on ASF for freebies, I think the money mgmt report may be linked there too.
It's Snake Pliskin
10th-November-2006, 02:57 PM
Bin,
From the Van Tharp Institute:
Kick Start Your Trading Career
The Workshop Hierarchy
With our launch of the 2007 workshop schedule, now is a good time to address the topic of "What courses should I attend if I really want to become a great trader/investor?"
We get many inquiries here at the Van Tharp Institute from people just like you, who weigh the value and opportunity, versus the time, travel and expense that they have to incur to attend a trading workshop. Therefore, to make the choice easier for you (one way or the other), I thought it would be valuable to provide an outline of what our workshops are and how they fit together, so that you can make an informed decision as to whether attending a workshop is something that you would like to do. In addition I'm making you an exceptional offer at the end of this article.
Thankfully, our workshops have a great reputation both for their content and for the level of attendees that frequent our events. This incredibly high caliber of clientele just keep coming back. Time and time again, we see the familiar faces repeating or attending a new course both for the educational experience and the networking opportunities – so we must be doing something right!
Whether you are starting out on the trading journey or have been a trader for many years, there are fundamental strengths that will help you to be the best trader you can be and our goal is to give you the tools and materials to help you do just that.
Van K. Tharp has close to 25 years of experience coaching traders, and in conjunction with his world class instructors, they have put together a trading curriculum that is unrivalled in the industry.
I. Foundation Workshops – Tharp Fundamentals and the Backbone of Great Trading
Although these workshops are called Foundation Workshops, they are definitely not basic. We name them that simply because they provide the core material that everyone who wants to become a great trader should master. We regard them as the starting point for your trading education regardless of your background or trading experience. Also, these core workshops are just as valuable for the short term trader as they are for the long term trader because what you learn is not dependent on the market traded, nor the timeframe.
Blueprint for Trading Success
Peak Performance 101
How to Develop a Winning Trading System that Fits You
These courses will help you master yourself, understand what you need to do for profitable trading, learn to develop a blueprint for trading/investing success, and learn how to develop systems that fit who you are
II. Specific Strategies and Proven Techniques in Various Trading Styles
Once you have a solid foundation and understand a new way of thinking about trading and investing, then we offer many courses that will give you a technical background and help you fill in the details that you will probably want. Can you take these courses without the foundation material? Yes you can, but doing so is like learning how to write a specific computer program without even knowing the basics of computer programming or understanding the potential mistakes that you could make.
Proven Swing Trading Strategies
Professional E-Mini Futures Tactics
Highly Effective ETF and Mutual Fund Techniques (this is essentially our course for learning great stock market trading techniques).
Professional Day Trading Strategies
III. Pre-requisite Material
We have one course and one program that definitely require other pre-requisite courses, so we’ve put these at the last level.
Advanced Peak Performance 202 (Peak 101 is a pre-requisite).
The Super Trader Program. (Peak 101 and Dr. Tharp’s approval required).
This week we’ll take a look at our Foundation Workshops:
How Our Courses Work
1. The Blueprint for Trading Success Workshop is the ultimate course to provide you with exactly what you need to master trading success, whether you are a full-time professional who wants a solid foundation or someone who would like to make a lot of money trading/investing and eventually move into trading full time for yourself. Dr. Tharp will walk you step- by- step through a series of 52 pertinent questions designed to get you thinking strategically about your trading. He will touch on all of the specific areas that you need to address, in the order that you need to address them. You will walk away from this workshop with a business plan outline and an understanding of why you want to trade, how you want to trade, the specific steps that you need to take to create a winning trading plan that works in any market condition and what type of trading systems you want to incorporate into your plan. You’ll also learn some of the key things that you need to personally master in order to be successful. You will learn how expectancy, position sizing, R-multiples, objectives, the big picture and other Tharp concepts fit together. After this workshop, you will know where you need to delve next to increase your profits and success in the markets.
2. Peak Performance 101. We have identified two types of people that frequent the Van Tharp Institute – those that believe that trading is purely technical and a learned skill (those people tend to head for the Systems and Strategy workshops first and eventually join us at Peak 101), and those who already know that their thoughts and beliefs play a huge role in their individual trading results. The bottom line is that we can prove that trading is largely psychological and that you must master yourself if you want great trading results. Peak Performance 101 is Dr. Tharp’s core psychological workshop and his most famous course for over 15 years. This is the workshop for anyone wanting to know how great traders think, behave and act so that they get consistent and profitable results, without stress. In this workshop, not only will you learn what makes a great trader great, but you will also find out what is holding you back. Whether it’s overtrading, not pulling the trigger, over confidence or lack of confidence, or just making mistake after mistake – there are many ways that people sabotage their market experiences. Taught exclusively by Dr Tharp, this workshop is designed to break down any barriers that you may have, as well as teaching you specific tasks and strategies that will improve your trading results overnight.
3. Developing a Winning Trading System that Fits You. We meet many people every year who spend small fortunes buying other people’s trading systems, and following their recommendations and ideas – yet they still don’t win in the markets. Is it because we think that we can’t do it ourselves? Or is there a holy grail that a few have mastered and when they do they won’t share it? Well, Jack Schwager, after writing Market Wizards and The New Market Wizards concluded that the secret was to develop and trade a system that fits you. And that’s what we help you do in this course. Don’t be confused with thinking that “creating a system” is having the technical know-how to develop a cutting edge software program. That’s great if you have that skill, but that is not a proper trading system. Anyone can create one if they have the knowledge and commitment to do it. In this workshop, you will learn the key components of a trading system (there are more than most people realize), how and why they are needed, and how to use position sizing to help you fulfill your trading objectives.
Summary
As you can see, these are the three core workshops that form the basis of Dr. Van Tharp’s work. But it takes commitment and discipline. Once you know how you think and why, uncover what you really want to achieve with your trading and then develop a specific plan to make it happen. You can fit workable trading systems into that plan and you’ll be well on your way to success as a trader. From there, you can look at specific trading strategies that might fit with who you are and add them to your arsenal. For example, many such techniques are taught in the upcoming swing trading workshop. We’ll look at some of the Specific Strategy Courses next week.
Bin57again
10th-November-2006, 03:31 PM
Rich/Snake- thanks, you're right, parting with cash may make me feel like I'm getting something but ultimately you have to do the hard work yourself. I'll do as you suggest. Thanks also guys for the links/info.
Tech - I think I'll try and contact Nick Radge. Should I email Trish on his website? How do I approach him? It's not so much that I want to learn about +expectancy. I think I have a grasp (sure, I'm not an expert). What I want to know is how to put together a paper which outlines the system/plan. E.g. the paper would say:
Objectives, starting capital, etc. Then:
1. What is the set-up (let's say some type of breakout).
2. Which instrument - let's say ASX CFDs
3. Timeframe - let's say position (days to weeks)
4. Entry - basically the set-up where you can enter at low risk (define - %, ATR, support/resistance, whatever).
5. Exits
6. Position sizing
7. Risk of ruin, max.drawdown/consecutive losses, etc
I know it's individual but having someone criticise the paper, add input, say "yeh, sure but have you (1) monte carlo'd it; or (2) your data's not big enough; or (3) what about this or that; (4) have you realised this or that?
Sorry for rambling.
Could he help with this do you think? I basically need a mentor!
Best regards.
tech/a
10th-November-2006, 04:09 PM
Just contact him through his website.
Either through Trish or direct.
stevo
10th-November-2006, 07:37 PM
I got a lot from Van Tharp's book. I like the Holy Grail stuff at the front, and the system testing and position sizing info really made me search for suitable portfolio testing software (MS / TradeSim / AmiBroker).
Rather than give a method he gives a framework for assessing methods. If you want to develop your own systems and approach to the market then this is a very good book to read. I thought that the title was a little outrageous but there is a lot of excellent stuff in between the covers.
I also wonder if the book outlines 99% of what Van Tharp has to say and all the courses etc that he runs is really just a repeat of the themes in the book. But then I haven't had the urge or need to shell out the dollars for any of his other stuff.
regards
Steve
Bin57again
12th-November-2006, 09:20 AM
Stevo
Having looked into Tharp's courses a bit more (to be honest RichKid and Snake had already convinced me not to spend the $1000) I think you're right when you say they probably just re-run the themes in the book. For example, I re-read last night chapter 3, the interview with Tom Basso and the section on sorting out your objectives, analysing what pschological issues you have (I've got many - not all trading related!), etc. It's clear that if you do the "homework" the book sets you, you're probably on your way. (Just as a side comment, it bugged me a bit how perfect Basso's answers were. E.g. do you have any weaknesses or problems? None, etc.) Anyway, as I said, I'll keep the $1000.
Bin
PS - Has anyone checked out Van Tharp's simulator/trading game on position sizing? I found it useful. See top right of link headed "Van Tharp's trading game". http://www.iitm.com/
qaz
17th-November-2006, 12:14 PM
PS - Has anyone checked out Van Tharp's simulator/trading game on position sizing? I found it useful. See top right of link headed "Van Tharp's trading game". http://www.iitm.com/
I'm downloading it right now.
I know this is naughty, but does anyone have the full version copy of it?...if so, please message me.
Bin57again
23rd-November-2006, 09:33 AM
Has anyone tried Athena, the position size software which Tharp recommends?
Qaz -Sorry I don't (otherwise I would lend you have a copy). If I come across one, I'll buzz you. I found it helpful just playing 1-3 (the latter stages seem a rehash of the principles of 1-3).
Shane Baker
23rd-November-2006, 12:28 PM
Hi Bin57
I haven't looked at athena but I do recommend having a look at Stator which has a free download. It is portfolio management software that has a very good position sizing calculator included amongst a lot of additional features. The author is continuously developing the software. It is a great product.
http://www.stator-afm.com/
Cheers
Shane
PS I have no financial interest in Stator. Just a very happy user.
tech/a
23rd-November-2006, 12:50 PM
Shane me too I agree.
stevo
23rd-November-2006, 04:58 PM
I thought that Athena software mentioned in TYWTFF was more like TradeSim or maybe even MSA. From memory it was used to backtest different position sizing strategies.
Stevo
qaz
26th-November-2006, 06:41 PM
Hi Bin57
I haven't looked at athena but I do recommend having a look at Stator which has a free download. It is portfolio management software that has a very good position sizing calculator included amongst a lot of additional features. The author is continuously developing the software. It is a great product.
http://www.stator-afm.com/
Cheers
Shane
PS I have no financial interest in Stator. Just a very happy user.
Thanx for that Shane
Downloading it now :D
>Apocalypto<
2nd-February-2007, 11:06 PM
Funny thing about Van Tharp is he failed so badly at trading, but his opinions about how to do it are held in such high regard!! :D
His book is in my case and it was a great read very mind opening!
theasxgorilla
3rd-February-2007, 12:46 AM
At risk of sounding all philosophical I think it will serve anyone well to identify what it is they're good at (and not good at). Van Tharp's wasn't trading per se, but he wrote a killer book on trading.
...and in it he explicitly states that he makes a better coach (business angel) and that is why he's an investor and not a business owner.
tech/a
3rd-February-2007, 09:48 AM
agree gorilla.
The old saying become an expert in something, is very true. While having a broad knowledge of most things of interest I find that this helps to weed out that which doesnt suit you,and opens doors to areas which could be worth the time and effort to become proficient.---a personal call of course.
Shwagger was another who wrote many books but as a futures trader evidently failed.
Bronte
3rd-February-2007, 11:33 AM
Totally agree with this:
"Become an expert in something"
Garpal Gumnut
13th-February-2007, 09:56 PM
Totally agree with this:
"Become an expert in something"
Dear Bronte,
Reading Van Tharp 10 yrs ago was a revelation to me, not surprised he traded poorly, interesting and I keep some of his adages in mind when I trade myself now. Its a cumulative experience trading, and humility is a good starting point.
Garpal
yonnie
15th-June-2007, 10:00 PM
wonder how you all run with those guys who cant even trade.
and you want to buy a trading strategy from them?
thats what happens: if you cant trade, you can always write books and teach people how to trade haha
I would think you learn from succesful people...........
theasxgorilla
15th-June-2007, 10:38 PM
yonnie,
What you write makes complete sense, but unfortunately in the real world its not always the case that those who are the best traders are also the best teachers. In any case, the book Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom is a gem. If you can get past the marketers title you will find a great book on the science of trading.
nomore4s
15th-June-2007, 11:41 PM
yonnie,
What you write makes complete sense, but unfortunately in the real world its not always the case that those who are the best traders are also the best teachers. In any case, the book Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom is a gem. If you can get past the marketers title you will find a great book on the science of trading.
Hope this makes sense but here goes anyway:
I also sometimes find that you can still learn things off people who weren't "experts" or super sucessful, as they know a lot about the mistakes and pitfalls. They may not have been the best at fixing these mistakes or navigating the pitfalls etc themselves, but can quite often give good advice or theory on them that other people can use to good effect.
nizar
15th-June-2007, 11:54 PM
yonnie,
What you write makes complete sense, but unfortunately in the real world its not always the case that those who are the best traders are also the best teachers. In any case, the book Trade Your Way to Financial Freedom is a gem. If you can get past the marketers title you will find a great book on the science of trading.
Agree.
I took alot out of Van Tharps book as well.
MS+Tradesim
16th-June-2007, 08:52 AM
Agree.
I took alot out of Van Tharps book as well.
My first time writing here after reading for a while.
I also agree. Tharp's book was the single most important factor that showed me how to go from being an inconsistent unprofitable discretionary trader with no idea to a successful strategy trader.
Of the posters on this forum I relate most strongly to Tech/a, Stevo and (I think) MichaelD. It appears to me they also learnt the same lessons whether from Tharp or other sources. Though by the glowing accounts on this forum it looks like I should also read Nick Radge's book.
CFD
16th-June-2007, 09:20 AM
I to have ploughed my way through Tharp's book. Well worth the effort though.
However if took as long to make a trade as he does to get to the point in his writings, I'm not too surprised he was not so good as a trader. Yes do read Nick Radge's book especially the sections prior to the charting.
yonnie
16th-June-2007, 05:32 PM
there are still plenty of succesful traders/writers out there:
darvas (my favorite), elders, turtles, that canslim writer etc
so Van Tharp is collecting well-known stuff and is good at making a better story out of it than most:)
MS+Tradesim
17th-June-2007, 12:10 PM
I wonder where the story comes from that Van Tharp failed as a trader. I also bought the second edition of TYWTFF and I bought his "Electronic Day Trading" (not worth it). He mentions that he still trades. Is there any actual evidence to support the story that he failed?
MS+Tradesim
17th-June-2007, 12:47 PM
Thanks Nick. I didn't mean to imply that he was short-term trading. That was just worded ambiguously. I just meant in his books he says he is still trading.
caleb2003
17th-June-2007, 01:45 PM
At risk of sounding all philosophical I think it will serve anyone well to identify what it is they're good at (and not good at). Van Tharp's wasn't trading per se, but he wrote a killer book on trading.
...and in it he explicitly states that he makes a better coach (business angel) and that is why he's an investor and not a business owner.
I don't know if you got the series here but the UK version of Dragons den has had Richard Farleigh on for the last series, worth downloading if you can find it as I thought he was the best one on it. He's been binned off for the next series due to upsetting the other dragons though
yonnie
17th-June-2007, 04:38 PM
well there you go folks
Van Tharp made heaps of money out of selling his books and courses and investing that in property and long-term securities - geez that guy must be a real smart business man.........wonder if I should throw in the trading as well and write.................????:confused:
Nick Radge
17th-June-2007, 06:40 PM
yonnie, that's a simplistic conlcusion. My statement did not say that's where he made his money. I said that is what he is currently doing. He may well have made his money from trading and used that vehicle as cash flow for his current investment activities.
theasxgorilla
17th-June-2007, 06:48 PM
I was chatting with Van a few months ago. I'm not sure he's doing a great deal of short term trading. Most of his stuff is very long term but using a 25%trailing stop loss. He also has a very significant property portfolio.
From reading his blog I'd also say he's playing a good deal of poker!
yonnie
18th-June-2007, 10:56 PM
yonnie, that's a simplistic conlcusion. My statement did not say that's where he made his money. I said that is what he is currently doing. He may well have made his money from trading and used that vehicle as cash flow for his current investment activities.
yeah nick, I know.......just having a laugh:)
sorry
