Quality of Postings on this forum

[tech/a]

Carrying on from discussion with Myself,Stef and Porper and anyone else who wishes to drop in----from the MUL Thread.
Posting here so as not to clutter it up.
I will reply to Stef and Porper when I have more time,I hope to keep discussion constructive and avoid personal attacks.

If you need to attack me I dont have a problem with that just make it constructive and with a point. :2evil:

Tech.

[Porper]

Tech,

First of all I do not want to "attack" you, I was just pointing out that your last couple of posts were a little confrontational.We do not want this forum to start going along the lines of Hotcopper with one word or sentence expletives, and I'm sure it wont.

I think the quality of postings on this forum is excellent, I also know that including myself some of us are not as experienced as yourself , Stefan and some others.We all have to start somewhere and one thing that we have in common is a interest in shares, plus of course making some money along the way.;)

Everybody has different strategy's to investing/speculating, as obviously you and Stefan have, I think that is a good thing as we can all learn from eachother, everybody on here has something to give, however small and insignificant the experienced investors think this is.

Now I think this thread was about MUL, so to get onto the stock at hand.Personally I currently have another sell in at 0.032 (I keep coming down) I will lose about 30 % but I have got to the point where I don't enjoy talking about this stock, everybody knows about Mul, with the dodgy management, shares in issue etc etc.I hope it does do well next year for people, I think it is a 50/50 call as to whether they go bust, if not and they hang in then they might turn the corner.In this market I can do better elsewhere and make up my 30 % and more hopefully.

Unfortunately I can't post in the mornings as I have a little thing called work to go to, but you never know, one day ..........................:)

[RichKid]

Carrying on from discussion with Myself,Stef and Porper and anyone else who wishes to drop in----from the MUL Thread.
Posting here so as not to clutter it up.
I will reply to Stef and Porper when I have more time,I hope to keep discussion constructive and avoid personal attacks.

If you need to attack me I dont have a problem with that just make it constructive and with a point. :2evil:

Tech.

Nice to see you back Tech. I hope you stick around and that we all get along.
Life isn't worth any unnecessary stress....I enjoy everyone's posts and look forward to 'em (even if it is on MUL ha ha ha (obviously I don't hold MUL), but good luck to you guys that do, I hate to see fellow investors get into trouble).

All the best,

[Joe Blow]

Carrying on from discussion with Myself,Stef and Porper and anyone else who wishes to drop in----from the MUL Thread.
Posting here so as not to clutter it up.
I will reply to Stef and Porper when I have more time,I hope to keep discussion constructive and avoid personal attacks.

If you need to attack me I dont have a problem with that just make it constructive and with a point. :2evil:

Tech.
Tech,

Greetings from Barcelona.

Great to see you back. I look forward to your contributions to the forum.

Lets put the past behind us and get on with the business of making this the best Aussie Stock Market forum on the internet.

We´ve got a great bunch of people here. Lets work together.

:)

[stefan]

If you need to attack me I dont have a problem with that just make it constructive and with a pointHi Tech,
I dont' think somebody want's to attack you. I just wish to show you something before we all move on with our postings and lives. I know you get upset about my replies obviously thinking that I'm some kind of forum police. If you can shed some light as to why you get that impression, then I'll try to avoid that sort of wording.

I for one always find myself wondering when I read one of your posts. There is always a hint in it that successful traders would have to follow you and that this would be the (only) way. While I never ever said that you're wrong or that your system wouldn't work, I was hoping that you could accept that others make money even without doing it your way. You have started a tech thread and I found it most interesting. Obviously you're making money by sticking to clearly defined rules and I wouldn't be in a position to argue with that. Why would I? It seems to work perfect. There are many different points to consider when investing money and they don't just come down to figures or facts or whatever. Personal goals and situations are having an impact. People live different lifes and as such they will have different goals when it comes to investment. Yada yada yada...

Long story short, I suggest we move on. You keep your tech thread alive and I promise to consider even the wildest competition ideas you come up with. It may take me a year to code them, but hey, that's life. I'll watch my MUL shares grow while doing it. :D

Seriously, I think you're adding something to the board and you should keep up your postings. I may occasionally argue with you but as I said before, that's what happens on a board.

Happy trading

Stefan

[tech/a]

Firstly there are more people on this board and most other boards who profess to being profitable(and arnet) than traders who are infact profitable.

Anyone can have a few profitable trades,very very few can string them together and make a profit year in and year out.

You can pick them a mile away.

My beef is that these people wish they could trade consistantly and have read a few books and perhaps done a few courses,yet the depth of knowledge on posting belies their inexperience.
The information presented to newbies and the genuine trader who is struggling and perhaps trading with most of his savings--------is plain dangerous in many cases.

These people have no other agenda than to pamper their own ego,they dont care wether the trader reading his "advice" wins or loses.

By now you can see I call a spade a spade I call it as I see it.I have nothing to prove as its all there for public scrutiny anyway.
My arrogance appears from impatience---seeing the same "Bu&&*T" posted time and again with the authority of Allan Greenspan.
Its value to a trader genuinely interested in turning a profit is generally very little.

Those that think Im trying to push my own trading methodology as "THE" way to trade are (Sorry Stef) completely missing my message.Its simply an example for all to see----many including myself years ago thought that achieving results like Techtrader impossible,so I and a few others set about proving it either way.It stands there as testimony that it can be done----NOT THAT ITS THE ONLY WAY TO DO IT!

The way I trade suits me.Its profitable----WHAT makes it profitable is the question Ill pose to all.
The answer will tell me if infact you are profitable or Have a few wins and simply wish you were able to trade consistantly!!
Others may trade options/futures/smalls----whatever but if they are making a consistant profit they will KNOW WHAT makes their trading profitable .Only one here on this forum has shown me this.(It has nothing to do with Fundamentals,Timeframe,Technical Analysis,charts or reports).

Sorry again stef but I and a few others DO KNOW WHAT makes our investments profitable. Know the WHAT and you can and will succeed in Trading----Business----Property---and even fewer of us are actually doing it.Certaintly all on different scales,magnitudes.

Most everyone gets bogged down in the HOW and WHY(Technical,Fundamental,Options,Warrents,blah blah)
Thats not it its the WHAT.

There is no other way of saying it and it does sound arrogant---------.

But when I first started I searched for people who I knew were successful in the fields I wished to be proficient.Without exception they were all impatient at times rude,no nonsense,hated repeating themselves---yet
Once genuine interest was shown by myself on a level beyond picking their brains they altered to ------amazingly patient,better than any book,genuinely interested in seeing me succeed (to them they were succeeding AGAIN).I have many mentors to thank---but only one showed me THE simplest secret of all which is applicable to all and all types of wealth creation.

Now to my point.
99% of posts on this and most other boards are at best Theoretical and at times Hypothetical,attempts at discovering WHY and HOW to Trade.

When simply that is of NO USE unless you know
WHAT makes you PROFITABLE and you have IMPLEMENTED IT!

Once in place THAT will GOVERN the HOW and WHY.

So other than Wayne anyone wish to tell me what the WHAT is?
(And explain it in English).

tech

[Erika]

Money Management (this includes setting a stop and when you will add more money)
Erika

[tech/a]

Erika that took guts particularly being your first post!!!

Anyone else agree?.

Would you or anyone else care to elaborate more on Money Management (a much bandied term which seems to attract a knowledge of "Yes I should be doing this" but in reality a "What is it that I should be doing---what am I trying to achieve?"response.


tech

[Erika]

Hi Tech
Money management
When I take a trade I know the maximum amount of money I am prepared to loss, I have been trading for about 4 years and have been through the whole gambit of things am I using the best indicator if I could just buy the share at the right price etc etc. I have been making a consistent profit for about a year now and I know that this is not very long but what I have learned is that hanging onto my capital has been the most important thing. I had some big winners before but I also had some big losers and at the end of the day they cancel each other out, now I have small losers and small winners and the occasional big winner and that is where you make money. I use cfd,s to do my trading so that I can have GSLO ( ie I know the maximum loss), I dont use the gearing yet as I am still inexperienced, but what I have learned is to trade only with the trend and make your losses small, I use ATR to workout my position size and yes I do have a written plan and I stick to it.

[The Barbarian Investor]

hi Tech,

Still trying to work out the What, Why ,When and How..

today was a -what the.. day.

Glad to see you've resumed posting and look forward to many more post's (not that i understand all you post's, and for that i thank some of the other forum members who add to your post's with numerouis questions)

The Barbarian Investor

[tech/a]

Barbarian

Look Im not going to jump down everyones throat---particularly yours with a head like that(bear).
But If I think your doing something DUMB Ill certaintly tell you.
But Ill tell you with reasons and evidence.
What you do with it is up to you.

Well 24 hrs and 2 replies.

(1) People dont know the answer.
(2) People dont want to be known that they dont know the answer.
(3) People think they know the answer but arnet game to post it incase they dont actually know the answer.
(4) People dont give a rats about the answer.

Hint Erika is at the HOW.(No offence)I will answer fully and explain.

Come on People WHAT is it that makes YOU a profitable Trader---there is supposedly heaps of you here,If your profitable you MUST know either that or your making a temporary profit,youll soon loose it!
If your making a profit and DONT KNOW WHY------youd better find out!
Or youll find its on LOAN from the market.

[Fleeta]

Tech/a

Please tell me the answer.

All I know is to buy low and sell high...

I think that to make abnormal profits you need to know something that the rest of the market doesn't. Do you not believe in EMH??

i've been going for 4 years and have had some great winners, some great losers and overall, narrowly beat the market. I put it all down to luck...look at all you suckers who bought MUL - you're all incredibly smart people, but you aren't imune to buying duds (that comment should induce some rage out of a few people).

Cheers,

Fleeta

[tech/a]

(that comment should induce some rage out of a few people).

Cheers,

Fleeta

Hahaha,

EMH ????

Soon.(The answer)Need some more participants otherwise when I disclose it Ill get all these smarties saying
"Yeh I knew that tell me something new"
Or
No blah blah blah.

Im not trying to trap or expose people only get you THINKING !

[Fleeta]

EMH = Efficient Market Hypothesis

If you did Finance at uni you would learn all about it - I'm not sold - it basically says that the market is fully informed and that you cannot make any money in excess of the market without some kind of insider information. It's linked in with the random walk theory, that what happened yesterday has no bearing on what happens today - a theory I think you have probably disproved with your (I assume above market) profits. Anyone who hasn't made >20% in the past year is a chump (another comment i'm sure will promote rage).

Cheers,

Heath

[tech/a]

Fleeta.

Sounds like a pigeon hole convieniently argued by those who cannot find the edge.

Kris (Son) has a degree in Physics and Quantum Mechanics and shows me on a regular basis how you can make figures prove anything!
Take the belief Or the road of skeptic and youll find figures that support both.

Most people take oneside or the other.By doing either your limiting your options in my veiw.
I dont care whos right only that IM RIGHT in my investment decisions.
If I listened to everyone else Id NEVER make a decision.

While I tend to agree with the theory that everything eventually returns to its mean(Random).There are times which everything/somethings are moving away from the mean/random---Slowly/Rapidly----Positive or Negative.

Its my endeavour to Identify movement away from the mean and in my direction so that I can benifit from it for as long as it remains out of step with random.(In Business,Property,and Trading),and to remove myself from harms way when movement away from the mean is negative

tech

[Erika]

Ok Tech
you need to tell me a bit more of what you mean by how. How do I choose a share, how do I know if the share is still going in the right direction, how do I decide how much money I put in a trade, How do I keep a track of the trades as they progress ie open/closed equity. I wont take offence at anything you say as I am still learning and if I dont ask the questions I dont learn the answers. This has been the first question I have seen that I wanted to answer because it gets me thinking about my trading not which share should I buy. I will admit one thing that amazes me on this forum is the number of people who will buy a share that is in a down trend, loosing money in the shortterm in a hope of good growth in the long term seems an extremely risky way of trading to me I hope it works for all those people.

[Dwib]

Tech/a,

I'm enjoying this thread and I can't say I know the real difference between why, how and what. But is it ... discipline? Having a strategy and the discipline to follow that strategy. Of course if you have the wrong strategy somewhere down the track you have realise that no amount of discipline is going to make you profitable. Hence you would need to change your strategy and fine tune it.

not sure ... but I thought I'd throw an answer in to show I was interested and keep the thread rolling.

Cheers
Dwib.

[RodC]

I've been actively investing in shares since about 1996, Overall I have been profitable but certainly not as much as I could have been.

I tried some shorter term trades for a while (not day trades) a few years ago but got burnt (mainly my ego) due to a lack of a plan and poor discipline. Looking back now I can see that I was also under capitalised.

My (simple) plan over the last 4 years has been:

"Universe of Stocks": Stocks from the Comsec Margin List which allow >50% gearing.
Div Yield >4% fully franked or 6% unfranked (got to pay the interest on the margin loan).
Stock to be uptrending, both above 30 day EMA and 30 week EMA.
Maximum of 20% trading capital in any one position (most are 10%).

I haven't been setting rigid stop losses, but I watch the stocks and if I consider a reversal (or stagnation) I get out. I've managed to get the emotion out of it because the stocks I've lost the most on over the years have been the ones I've grown attached to. That doesn't happen any more - I'll sell anything. Recently (last couple of years) I think I've been to quick to "pull the trigger" and haven't let the profits run enough.

I have been profitable, but certainly not as profitable as I could have been if I had a better plan in place earlier. I certainly consider that I "trade smarter" now, anything I now buy I know what I want out of it, if it doesn't perform in an appropriate time frame I don't worry about it I sell it and move on.

Why do I consider myself profitable now - discipline.

Rod.

[tech/a]

EXCELLENT some thinking people.

Discipline is part of the WHY.

The What stands alone without it all the Hows and Whys have no meaning.
WHAT is a sentinal THE reason for profit

Rod this will really help your trading from what youve said!

Keep it up all will be revealed on the weekend.

tech

[Dwib]

Supply and Demand ???

If there is demand for a product then the supply dries up and then the value increases as people are more desperate to get the hands on the product and willing to pay more money. If there wasn't a demand for a product then it wouldn't be valuable.

[Porper]

Although I am not participating on this thread, I do find it intriguing.It is very interesting watching people self-diagnose, I think I am a bit new to investing to get in this deep.I must be a lucky beginner joining the market at a boom time.

My selections are pretty basic, watch a stock for a while, get as much information as I can on that company, if I like what I read (and I must admit whether the directors are actively buying is a big issue for me), then I will buy when it is about to bounce (hopefully). I never think about my feelings for a company, only what potential investors might think, so I could, and have bought shares in a company I thought was full of hot air yet knowing it would do well medium term so locking in a descent profit before selling.

You can get a good idea having watched the trading pattern as to when they bounce.One thing I have learnt the hard way is to set a rigid stop loss at 20 %, this way I can have a better chance of not selling out to early.I also like the "high risk" stocks, you don't have to get many that win big to more than cover the losers.It seems a pretty good bet on junior oil stocks at the moment, again maybe simplistic but they all have a run before drilling news, so why not take advantage I say, this bull market wont last forever.Then we'll be asking Tech to teach us about put options. :D

Very simplistic I know, and I am learning the "technical" aspects as quickly as I can, enjoying it thoroughly as well. I am sure you will scorn me and give me your view on where I am going wrong Tech

[tech/a]

I am sure you will scorn me and give me your view on where I am going wrong Tech


Not so

Its a sound methodology one which Insight Trader make a living out of.
Directors buying huge volumes of their own stock (or selling it!!) is a pretty good indication that somethings up.

However there is in my veiw some work to be done to "Guarentee as much as one can that your method of trading will be consistantly profitable"

Question.

Why have you selected a 20% stop.
Is that 20% of initial investment
OR
20% of available funds?

tech

[RichKid]

I'm a newbie and I'm still figuring out my method and plan- I follow what little I have put together so far. See the thread on Destra DES for an example of how I trade. I basically go long on stocks and try to buy a bullish trend (eg uptrending stocks or recovery plays that have started to rise from 'bottoms'- I try to avoid picking bottoms). I'm learning to take profits without being greedy and hanging on in the 'hope' that it keeps going. Still have trouble following my stops but I'm working on where to set em. I don't use percentages (ie 8% drop to trigger stop) instead I look for close support and work on risk to return.

I'm finding your posts and threads extremely helpful Tech (Even though I don't understand most of it) and will keep trying to figure out the matrix etc that you have set out in your other thread.

I'm glad you are one of those people who are happy to share your knowledge and with the critical and constructive input of other forum members we should have some good discussions in future.

Thanks again!

[Porper]

Tech

My 20% stop loss is per stock, not my overall portfolio. Nobody told me 20 % was the correct figure, just my preference.I have not thought about my total investments, maybe that is an issue I need to address.I haven't been trading long enough to test any theory on when to sell everything.I first started trading as a young lad in 87, obviously got stung heavily a few months later, I haven't traded until this year since then.so I am very concerned as to be in a position to sell when, and it is a "when" the next collapse happens.

One thing I will add to my last post is everybody says buy a lot of stocks to dilute any losers, maybe I am wrong but from what I can see all this does is stop your big winners making you a lot of money.I have ten stocks and I am making a nice profit, certainly not life changing, if I had gone with my instinct I would have four stocks, three very big winners one losing 30 %, in my view if you feel very bullish about a stock, put a large chunk of your overall budget into it.If I had $500,00 to invest I would trade more cautiously, as I haven't I need to be more aggressive for a while.It is true the more money you have the more you make.

As to whether my style of investing will continue to make a profit year after year, in all honesty I doubt it, but my aim is to trade like this in this Bull market while at the same time learning as much as possible so I can change my tactics when I need to. :xyxthumbs

[tech/a]

Porper.

20% of stock value equates to the same thing as 20% of capital,if fully invested.
So with a 10 stock portfolio you can be 100% wrong 10 times to decrease your capital 20%
4 Times with a portfolio of 4.

Porper I really think that a large majority of traders here can associate with your concerns and uncertainty.
I really believe that very soon this can be alieviated.

See my goal in this forum is to guide you (or anyone interested) toward profitability CONSISTANT profitability.

Im not interested in HOW you get there Stocks,Options,Futures.
OR
WHY you trade the way you do,Technical,Fundamental,Gann,Elliot,Tarot cards

All is as valid as the next provided it is profitable.

If you know WHAT makes your investments profitable then you certaintly will be!!

[tech/a]

Before I move on.

My apologies for going off topic here.

Many forums are full of hypothetical, un informed,and in many cases dangerous advice or more to the point----rhetoric.

They are places that most newbies now go to "get a grounding" on this very diverse topic.
Its my view that the majority of the time not knowing any better they are lead in the wrong direction by someone who.

(1) Has read a book and is all excited.
(2) Has made a few profitable trades which the whole world knows about----and umpteen losers that only they know about!
(3) Is as confused as you are (Is XYZ a buy do you think?).
(4) Is wowed by the power of leverage and posts astounding trades with little knowledge of how their "Paper/hindsite Trade got there and no real idea of how the instrument they are trading works/operates.
(5) Have studied a method and convinced that THIS METHOD IS the HOLY GRAIL,not understanding WHAT makes ANY method profitable.(Force feeding raeders with Method related lingo and no explaination of how it is applied (PARTICULARLY AS IT HAPPENS) 99% quote hindsite examples which is fine what about the 100 other examples in the same timeframe that fail!!


In Summary Forums tend to turn.

The Simple into the Complex

General discussion is fine but if your expousing wisdom to the masses be sure you can demonstrate its application not its THEORY.

Remember that when exposing wisdom------- some people could and do loose a great deal of $$$s from un informed rubbish.They have the same dreams and aspirations you do --- otherwise they wouldnt be here!

You DO have a responsibility if you post in a knowledgable fashion---( in my veiw)

Ill post further discussion and explaination on the WHAT of trading on a seperate thread.

[Porper]

TechA Quote "You DO have a responsibility if you post in a knowledgable fashion---( in my veiw)"



Totally agree, and that's why we are on this forum & not Hotcopper, but just because we are not all experts doesn't mean to say we shouldn't post.If you read through the posts there are lots of discussions questioning buying/selling of a particular stock, not many on overall strategy, which when it boils down to it decides whether we will be profitable most of the time or just some of the time.

That's why your thread is creating a lot of interest, most people on here (myself included) are trying to find the answers to some of your previous questions.The fact we don't all know exactly where we are going doesn't mean we don't want to ask ourselves some hard questions and to find that solid investment strategy.

Unfortunately I will not be around for a month from Thursday (Going to a white Christmas in England) hopefully, so will not be able to respond but will look forward to the thread when I return. :santa:

[tech/a]

If you read through the posts there are lots of discussions questioning buying/selling of a particular stock, not many on overall strategy, which when it boils down to it decides whether we will be profitable most of the time or just some of the time.

Dont have a problem with that.

Only IF a poster offers advice!

Thats where the responsibility of due care comes in.

If its a theory or worked once then say so! Dont present it as tried and proven

This is my definition of quality.

There should be no problems with querying or asking for proof that this or that presented is factual or theory,If its offered as FACT


I certaintly dont and wont have a problem that way with any of the stuff I post up.

I could be wrong but isnt it easy to prove if its proven and you have evidence?
When a poster baulks at explainatory questioning then its a sure sign its a theory.

Anyway have a great Xmas in the UK.

[JetDollars]

If Discipline is part of the WHY then Confident is part of the WHAT

Confident = Discipline, but I haven't done that during my 2 months trading days until now. So I am confident to say that my profit was base on luck, researches, sleepless and most of all really enjoy what I am doing.

TradingPlan + TradingSystem = (consistant) Profits (but without Money and Risk Management = - Profit)............

Knowledge is the keys.

[tech/a]

If Discipline is part of the WHY then Confident is part of the WHAT

Confident = Discipline, but I haven't done that during my 2 months trading days until now. So I am confident to say that my profit was base on luck, researches, sleepless and most of all really enjoy what I am doing.

TradingPlan + TradingSystem = (consistant) Profits (but without Money and Risk Management = - Profit)............

Knowledge is the keys.


Jet.

It certaintly is possible in fact more than likely very plausable that many making a profit here are making it in spite of themselves rather than good management.

This is typified by

Irregular profits,
More regular losses coupled with a fair share of "Holds" hoping for the company to return to an upward trade direction,
Lack of funding,
Unquantified risk,
Lack of confidence.

Youll notice how the enjoyment fails as the losses grow.
One good win can have you on a high while you lose 50% of your net worth!!
We humans are forever the optimist.

Trading Plan + Trading System certaintly wont guarentee profits
Ive seen many which couldnt turn a profit in 100 yrs.
Even with the best Money management in the world.

Turning a Plan into a System that is PROFITABLE is the Challenge to every trader,and money Management is only part of that plan

There are many other components all which will be disclosed and I hope discussed soon on the "Being Profitable Thread".

Confidence comes with KNOWING WHAT makes YOUR method Profitable and that is that it will have a POSITIVE EXPECTANCY which you will have either calculated or will have identified through exhaustive testing.

In this context Knowledge is the key!!

Have a great break and I hope that in 12 mths time you and many others here are making consistent healthy profits.

tech

[JetDollars]

Thanks Tech/a for your knowledge and help me and many other to consistant profit in the near future.

I am looking forward to read your consistant profit system in the up coming post/s.

Merry XMas and Happy New Year.