I should be logging my 10,000 hours this year, and until the recent crash, I had considered I was advancing beyond beginner status and getting to the point where I thought I knew a little about trading.
The crash was my first experience of trading a market that wasn't essentially a bull market and I took a pretty big hit - holding on to a lot of speccy rubbish.
The lesson has been learned and I'm back to feeling confident about my future prospects as a trader.
Wysiwyg
26th-April-2009, 10:05 AM
I first became aware of the 10 000 hours principle through a newsletter from Van Tharp and it clicked for me straight away. I mean the necessity to discover AND understand the multitude of trading possibilities. There is so much information out there and many many possible paths to take.
My trading stubborness has been my greatest obstacle ...
2 Ignore risk management
Always value conviction over discipline. Don’t worry when a trade goes against you, just put it aside and think of it as a long term investment. Or double down. It has to come back eventually.
The market always goes up, right? Wrong. :)
jono1887
26th-April-2009, 10:14 AM
Wow :eek:, 10,000 hours.... i better get started now then!! :D
Mr J
26th-April-2009, 10:18 AM
The problem with this figure is that this is the amount suggest to become truly good. However, one never needs to be great to be profitable. Success is subjective, and I would describe a decently profitable trader (enough to afford a comfortable living) as a successful trader.
Skill is rarely developed at a linear rate, so it's likely that even if it does take 10,000+ hours to become great, one should be able to become a very good trader in a far shorter time, and a profitable trader in a far shorter time still.
Trembling Hand
26th-April-2009, 10:43 AM
That 10,000 is rubbish in that just doing the time will not get you there. Its 10,000 hours in deliberative practise. Not the 50,000 hours most punters spend on the market chopping and changing and never reflecting or reviewing.
bowman
26th-April-2009, 11:19 AM
That 10,000 is rubbish in that just doing the time will not get you there. Its 10,000 hours in deliberative practise. Not the 50,000 hours most punters spend on the market chopping and changing and never reflecting or reviewing.
An excerpt from the article:
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
So putting it plainly, to become a successful trader, you need to invest at least 10,000 hours of your time doing just that… trading. Of course, that means that you’ll also have to think about trading to come up with ideas, read about the current market, learn about market history to put the present in context, learn different ways of analyzing the market like technical analysis, tape reading, sentiment, etc. There’s a lot there but you need to put in those hours before you can expect success.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm curious as to who these people are that chop and change for 50,000 hours (30 years of trading) and how big their original inheritance was?
:rolleyes:
tech/a
26th-April-2009, 11:28 AM
Average apprenticeship 3 yrs 6240 hrs
Average Degree 3 yrs 6240 hrs
Masters 8320 hrs
Doctorate 14560 hrs
Most race drivers start in carts at 7 and end up racing at 18 ish.
So say 11 yrs at 10 hrs a week 5720 hrs.
Most pro golfers would have spent 10,000 hrs + playing golf.
Most businesses fail in the first 3 yrs 6240 hrs.
Most traders in the same time frame.
10,000 hrs is a good "Average" for consistent understanding of a discipline I think.
Just as 95% of traders fail is a good "Average".
Wysiwyg
26th-April-2009, 11:43 AM
I think it is understood the figure is simply a general one. Trembling Hand has his tongue firmly planted within his cheeks. :p:
Trembling Hand
26th-April-2009, 11:47 AM
Guys this 10,000 hours thing is really misunderstood and misquoted.
Its comes from work in the 90s by mostly Dr. K. Anders Ericsson (http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html) and some others.
Its not 10,000 "doing". Ericsson found that the difference between expert performers and the good performers was that the so call experts or the one recognised as be at the top of their field had engaged in deliberate practice of at least 10,000 hours.
Just doing does not make you an expert. To take techs example how many apprenticeship become true masters? Close to none but most have logged 10,000 by their 4 -5 year. They become competent but not top of their field.
The 10,000 hours thing is now quoted as 10,000 hours to success. this is exactly the opposite to what the studies, and there is a heap of them, was proving. Lots of people clock up 10,000 hours doing. Few become masters in their field.
jono1887
26th-April-2009, 12:05 PM
Just doing does not make you an expert. To take techs example how many apprenticeship become true masters? Close to none but most have logged 10,000 by their 4 -5 year. They become competent but not top of their field.
The 10,000 hours thing is now quoted as 10,000 hours to success. this is exactly the opposite to what the studies, and there is a heap of them, was proving. Lots of people clock up 10,000 hours doing. Few become masters in their field.
True, i think its more your passion and interest in the field that will get you furthest... if you simply have no interest in it other than the fact of making money, even after 10,000 hours of trading you still wont be a great trader.
jersey10
26th-April-2009, 12:28 PM
True, i think its more your passion and interest in the field that will get you furthest... if you simply have no interest in it other than the fact of making money, even after 10,000 hours of trading you still wont be a great trader.
There is no way you could do 10 000 hours of anything you weren't interested in.
Mr J
26th-April-2009, 12:29 PM
The 10,000 hours thing is now quoted as 10,000 hours to success. this is exactly the opposite to what the studies, and there is a heap of them, was proving. Lots of people clock up 10,000 hours doing. Few become masters in their field.
Which is why I said one doesn't need to be great to be successful (unless one defines success as being great). I may not ever become a great trader, I may never become a good one, but I'm confident I will become decent enough to make a good living.
Trembling Hand
26th-April-2009, 12:31 PM
There is no way you could do 10 000 hours of anything you weren't interested in.
Really? every been to school? ever had a job? ever been a parent?
MRC & Co
26th-April-2009, 12:33 PM
There is no way you could do 10 000 hours of anything you weren't interested in.
Most people do it every day, every wk, every month, every year, at work.
Just saw your reply first TH, unsure about the parent part, hope it's not that bad!
jersey10
26th-April-2009, 12:40 PM
Really? every been to school? ever had a job? ever been a parent?
yes , yes , no.
was interested in school, was interested in my jobs, i assume i will like being a parent and as a result would like to have children.
point is, people don't choose and continue with activities that are optional as choosing to become a trader or an athlete or a guitarist that take a lot of practice are. School is required by law, job is required to live, parents who no longer want to be parents don't really have the option to make their children disappear.
tech/a
26th-April-2009, 01:32 PM
Personally I'm happy with competency until I hop in a plane/have a complex medical problem/employ mid/high level management then I want Greatness.
Id want to be great if I were trading $1 million + but if less then competency FOR ME will be fine.
kennas
26th-April-2009, 02:03 PM
I've probably put in 160,000 and I'm still crap.
Sam Collins
26th-April-2009, 02:26 PM
Really? every been to school? ever had a job? ever been a parent?
Choices.
Do we have a choice in these? I don't think so. We have to goto school, whether we are interested in it or not. We have to have a job if we want to live properly, whether we are interested in jobs or not, and as far as a parent go, thats upto the stupid individual who decides to have a kid before they are ready.
Trading is a choice, therefore as it was said, it would be very hard to stack up 10,000 hours of something that you weren't interested in and had a passion for. No different than Golf or Knitting, no one in their right mind will sit down and commit themselves to 10,000 hours of either if they have no interest in them.
tech/a
26th-April-2009, 04:24 PM
I've probably put in 160,000 and I'm still crap.
Why?
After 160000 hrs youd at least have to know
why.
jono1887
26th-April-2009, 06:00 PM
I've probably put in 160,000 and I'm still crap.
LOL!!! Maybe trading just isn't for you...
beerwm
26th-April-2009, 06:38 PM
ok, so us newbies are told-
--->10,000 hours to become a good trader.
--> KISS, keep it simple stupid.
takes 10,000 hours to keep it simple?
ivant
26th-April-2009, 06:53 PM
Guys this 10,000 hours thing is really misunderstood and misquoted.
Its comes from work in the 90s by mostly Dr. K. Anders Ericsson (http://www.psy.fsu.edu/faculty/ericsson.dp.html) and some others.
Its not 10,000 "doing". Ericsson found that the difference between expert performers and the good performers was that the so call experts or the one recognised as be at the top of their field had engaged in deliberate practice of at least 10,000 hours.
Just doing does not make you an expert. To take techs example how many apprenticeship become true masters? Close to none but most have logged 10,000 by their 4 -5 year. They become competent but not top of their field.
The 10,000 hours thing is now quoted as 10,000 hours to success. this is exactly the opposite to what the studies, and there is a heap of them, was proving. Lots of people clock up 10,000 hours doing. Few become masters in their field.
I second TH on this. 10,000 hours means nothing, other than that you understand the field better. I'm in my 4th year at uni, and I can definitely tell you that it is not enough to become great at commerce. You will maybe get a job, at least you would think so (Monash), but you need something else to be good.
AbundantIncome
26th-April-2009, 07:06 PM
Does it mean i need like 5 years before I pass the point of beginner's lounge ... oh nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
i think it means there are a lot of years of heart ache/ head ache ????? HOPE NOT !!!!
Average apprenticeship 3 yrs 6240 hrs
Average Degree 3 yrs 6240 hrs
Masters 8320 hrs
Doctorate 14560 hrs
Most race drivers start in carts at 7 and end up racing at 18 ish.
So say 11 yrs at 10 hrs a week 5720 hrs.
Most pro golfers would have spent 10,000 hrs + playing golf.
Most businesses fail in the first 3 yrs 6240 hrs.
Most traders in the same time frame.
10,000 hrs is a good "Average" for consistent understanding of a discipline I think.
Just as 95% of traders fail is a good "Average".
tech/a
26th-April-2009, 08:08 PM
ok, so us newbies are told-
--->10,000 hours to become a good trader.
--> KISS, keep it simple stupid.
takes 10,000 hours to keep it simple?
Most need to go through the motions and emotions of finding out what doesnt work more so than what does.
Thats why people alter their trading when they have a run of losses or go buy a new book or go study a way of trading.
They have to go through the complex so they arrive at the simple.
They also have to know what it is that they employ simply.
Mr J
26th-April-2009, 11:39 PM
ok, so us newbies are told-
--->10,000 hours to become a good trader.
--> KISS, keep it simple stupid.
takes 10,000 hours to keep it simple?
The 10,000 figure would be to become a great trader. One could become a profitable trader in far less than that. I strongly believe in keeping it simple, as simple is often most effective. Many activities rely on understanding a few key concepts, and I think the same can apply to trading, and it's how well these are applied that determines success. Of course, many trading systems are quite complicated, I'm just saying that profitable trading doesn't need to be complex, but just having a good understanding of the basics (if that's what we'd call them).
IFocus
27th-April-2009, 12:26 PM
10,000 hours or ten years has been quoted by many researching the success of the likes such as sporting super stars Tiger Woods, then there is Bill Gates etc
Here is Gladwell for those that haven't seen it before on the subject
Also as TH has said already how you spend your time in trading or more importantly practice is critical to the time you take to reach success, practice bad behaviors guess what you just get worse.
Practice good behaviors and you get good results, practice what you are good at and you get "gooder" faster.
brettc4
27th-April-2009, 08:08 PM
I've done some quick calculations.
Based on my day fob which has nothing to do with the markets.
A 2 year and another on the way, 1.5 hours or tavel a day in a car with someone who doesn't care about the markets, and a bit of sleep here and there. I can spend on average 0.72 hours per day.
I figure it will take me .... 38 years, give or take.
ice
27th-April-2009, 08:38 PM
I've probably put in 160,000 and I'm still crap.
Having met quite a few serious traders I have generally found that people who make comments like that are actually pretty good.
ice
helicart
27th-April-2009, 08:48 PM
I first invested 40 years ago, and have been swing and day trading for 4.
I still cycle through extreme levels of under and over confidence.
When your account has a 20%+ drawdown, it plays silly buggers with your head....you get angry, twitchy, jumpy, and unable to think about anything else for long....entering on a signal is hard, really hard.
Fortunately, I haven't had a drawdown greater than 12% for 2 years, but even that knocks me around.
10,000 hours of one man's time can be 40,000 of another's.
It's Snake Pliskin
28th-April-2009, 01:41 AM
I've probably put in 160,000 and I'm still crap.
Kennas that reads funny.:)
