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MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 07:49 AM
The pathetic sentences handed down by our courts are in too many cases a disgrace. I don't know why their isn't more retribution by victims and their families.


A mother of a baby girl killed by a speeding drunk driver described her heartbreak as the man who mowed them down was sentenced to a minimum 22 months jail by a Perth court.

Benjamin Alan Butler, 25, of Thornlie in Perth's south-east, ran over Tania Moorby and her 11-month-old daughter Grace as they stood in the driveway of their Thornlie home on April 18 this year.

In the District Court of Western Australia, Justice Richard Keen sentenced Butler to a total of 44 months jail - 34 months for dangerous driving causing Grace's death and 10 months for dangerous driving causing bodily harm.

He will be eligible for parole after 22 months.

Also convicted of driving under the influence, he was disqualified from driving for six years, two years for each charge, and fined $1,500.

Butler, who pleaded guilty to the charges, was driving with a blood alcohol level of 0.166 - more than three times the legal limit - at the time of the tragedy.

His lawyer John Prior told the court his client was a binge drinker who had drunk more than a dozen cans of pre mixed spirits the night before the accident.

Butler accepted that he would be jailed and was genuinely remorseful, Mr Prior said.

Before he was sentenced, Mrs Moorby drew tears from many in the packed courtroom when she read out her victim impact statement.

She and her husband Jamie had feared they would never have the family they desperately wanted because she suffered from severe arthritis.

"Grace was my life," Mrs Moorby said.

"Everything I did revolved around my little girl.

"My life will never be the same. Nothing I do is the same as it was before that day.

"Up until that moment I loved my life, now I hate it.

"I hate waking up every morning facing the day without my little Grace."

Mrs Moorby received injuries including broken ribs, bruising, shoulder and liver damage and cuts and grazes when she was struck by Butler's car.

She said the injuries had healed but her heart never would.

She said she did not hate Butler but hated his choices and actions.

"You may think that you understand the gravity of your actions. You don't. The day you hold your firstborn child in your arms you will fully understand what you have done," she said.

"All I have left are my memories and they simply aren't enough."

Instead of planning a trip to NSW for Grace's birthday to show her off, they had to plan a funeral, Mrs Moorby said.

The court was told Butler clipped another car when he accelerated heavily while still intoxicated from a binge-drinking session the night before.

"You should have been aware you were still under the influence of alcohol," Judge Keen said.

He said the consequences of Butler's actions had been devastating, but in the accident, pre-sentence and psychological reports, he had appeared to play down his involvement, Judge Keen said.

Outside the court, Butler's distressed mother told reporters "he is so sorry".

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 01:27 PM
17 years and then they let him out to live next to, perhaps YOU ?

Why not life ??? or wasnt stabbing someone 48 times bad enough.


Teen gets 17 years for schoolgirl's brutal murder
A teenager has been jailed for at least 17 years for stabbing a 15-year-old girl to death on her way home from school.

Tania Burgess was stabbed 48 times as she took a shortcut through the grounds of the Forresters Beach Resort on the New South Wales central coast in July 2005.

prawn_86
14th-November-2008, 01:36 PM
17 years and then they let him out to live next to, perhaps YOU ?

Why not life ??? or wasnt stabbing someone 48 times bad enough.

If he wasnt trialled as an adult then he cant get life im pretty sure

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 01:40 PM
If he wasnt trialled as an adult then he cant get life im pretty sure

He was young at the time but there are plenty of other cases where the sentence doesnt fit the crime, I'll keep posting when I see them.

It's Snake Pliskin
14th-November-2008, 02:02 PM
Mr Burns you are not the only thinking Australia is a joke and has lost the plot.

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 02:40 PM
Bailed ? why not lock the creep up till the Court date !!!


An 18- year old man has been charged with 15 offences following an alleged road rage incident earlier this week.

A woman had reported being threatened with a firearm on the Hume Highway at Somerton on Tuesday, after she accidentally cut off a motorcyclist.

Police arrested the man this morning and charged him with a number of offences including assault with a weapon and carrying a concealed firearm.

He has been bailed to appear at Broadmeadows Magistrates Court in January.

Happy
14th-November-2008, 02:47 PM
Mr Burns you are not the only thinking Australia is a joke and has lost the plot.

I have many questions:

Why penalty has to fit the crime, and why it could not be so severe that potential offenders would have second thoughts before committing the crime?
Why prisons are treated as rehabilitation centres rather than penalty centres?
Why prisoners are allowed to do nothing instead of contributing at least 100% to their keep?
Why we do not have mandatory linkage to previous crimes, as we can clearly see that some criminals make crime their way of life and they are just recidivists?
Why barristers take cases, know that offenders did the crime and use loopholes to get accused of the hook, donít they have conscience?

I better stop here, as it doesnít matter what I think or what I ask.
I too think they lost the plot or I expect too much.

chops_a_must
14th-November-2008, 02:54 PM
Why prisons are treated as rehabilitation centres rather than penalty centres?
They aren't.

There are stories here of prisoners wanting to help other prisoners to learn how to read, but are disallowed from doing so. No wonder they end up back there. :rolleyes:

And there have been recent cases where prisoners are released without having the appropriate treatment (sex offenders) when they were having that treatment on the outside, which is a disgrace.



Why prisoners are allowed to do nothing instead of contributing at least 100% to their keep?

Most of them have jobs inside.



I too think they lost the plot or I expect too much.
Or you don't have a clue.

prawn_86
14th-November-2008, 02:55 PM
Essentially our prisons are under funded and under staffed like everything else provided by the magnificent Australian government.

The whole re-hab vs. punishment debate could probably be a new thread.

Tougher penalties and harsher sentencing along with increased death penalties in the US has had mixed effects. No-one can say for certain it reduced crime.

There is obviously something wrong on a very basic level that needs to be addressed if crime is to ever be reduced. Harsher penalties dont seem to work unfortunately

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 02:56 PM
I have many questions:

Why penalty has to fit the crime, and why it could not be so severe that potential offenders would have second thoughts before committing the crime?
Why prisons are treated as rehabilitation centres rather than penalty centres?
Why prisoners are allowed to do nothing instead of contributing at least 100% to their keep?
Why we do not have mandatory linkage to previous crimes, as we can clearly see that some criminals make crime their way of life and they are just recidivists?
Why barristers take cases, know that offenders did the crime and use loopholes to get accused of the hook, donít they have conscience?

I better stop here, as it doesnít matter what I think or what I ask.
I too think they lost the plot or I expect too much.

Barristors and the Courts only deal in THE LAW - justice has nothing to do with it.

It sucks big time and lets very bad people out onto the streets giving the police more work to do.

chops_a_must
14th-November-2008, 03:00 PM
It sucks big time and lets very bad people out onto the streets giving the police more work to do.
And if the police weren't totally incompetent, the same would be the case.

There has been some fairly high profile cases of late in Perth which has let accused murderers off the hook, and makes police look worse than their stereotype.

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 03:01 PM
Essentially our prisons are under funded and under staffed like everything else provided by the magnificent Australian government.

The whole re-hab vs. punishment debate could probably be a new thread.

Tougher penalties and harsher sentencing along with increased death penalties in the US has had mixed effects. No-one can say for certain it reduced crime.

There is obviously something wrong on a very basic level that needs to be addressed if crime is to ever be reduced. Harsher penalties dont seem to work unfortunately

Harsher penalties would work if you just locked these creeps up till someone could say with reasonable certainty that they wont re offend.

And if they cant well they just stay there ! offenders should have their "rights" recinded also, too many psycho's appealing their already ridiculously lenient sentences.

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 03:03 PM
And if the police weren't totally incompetent, the same would be the case.

There has been some fairly high profile cases of late in Perth which has let accused murderers off the hook, and makes police look worse than their stereotype.

I sympathise with the police, how would you like to risk your life apprehending some low life only to have the judge let him out on bail or give him a slap on the wrist.

prawn_86
14th-November-2008, 03:05 PM
Harsher penalties would work if you just locked these creeps up till someone could say with reasonable certainty that they wont re offend.

And if they cant well they just stay there ! offenders should have their "rights" recinded also, too many psycho's appealing their already ridiculously lenient sentences.

No it wouldnt work. It hasnt in other countries, crime rates remain the same or higher.

It is possible that some of these people have deep seeded mental issues and actually need help rather than punishment. Im not condoning what they do, but its obvious that the current system (even with stronger penalties) doesnt work.

chops_a_must
14th-November-2008, 03:10 PM
I sympathise with the police, how would you like to risk your life apprehending some low life only to have the judge let him out on bail or give him a slap on the wrist.

I have no sympathy for police to be honest.

There are protocols they have to follow for good reason, so that they can't plant evidence. They have failed that test recently.

And I know they don't charge people if it becomes too hard, especially with traffic offences. Car went straight through a stop sign and brought me down off a motorbike, despite witnesses, no charges were laid. And the same thing happened to a friend of mine when her car was t-boned by someone going straight through a stop sign.

Nah, until they do their job properly, I wont give them any sympathy. And nor do they deserve it. Dr Death doesn't get any sympathy for incompetence, and I extend that same mindset to any one else equally incompetent.

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 03:12 PM
No it wouldnt work. It hasnt in other countries, crime rates remain the same or higher.

It is possible that some of these people have deep seeded mental issues and actually need help rather than punishment. Im not condoning what they do, but its obvious that the current system (even with stronger penalties) doesnt work.

The crime rate may not go down much but removing certain people from society , permanently, would certainly help matters.

Some have mental issues for sure and they aren't cured by jail time, they are just "punished' not cured and let out to re offend in many cases.

Take pedophiles, they have a sexual attraction to children, what good does jail do ? they need treatment BUT they should not be let loose until cured, if no cure then no release and I'm not sure there is a "cure" for a sexual preference.

Sentencing and punishment is a huge issue thats bugged me for years.

chops_a_must
14th-November-2008, 03:15 PM
Take pedophiles, they have a sexual attraction to children, what good does jail do ? they need treatment BUT they should not be let loose until cured, if no cure then no release and I'm not sure there is a "cure" for a sexual preference.

But like I said above, what if there are not the programs inside?

Hardly fair if someone is willing to undergo that treatment, and it is not provided, that they are continued to be locked up.

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 03:16 PM
I have no sympathy for police to be honest.

There are protocols they have to follow for good reason, so that they can't plant evidence. They have failed that test recently.

And I know they don't charge people if it becomes too hard, especially with traffic offences. Car went straight through a stop sign and brought me down off a motorbike, despite witnesses, no charges were laid. And the same thing happened to a friend of mine when her car was t-boned by someone going straight through a stop sign.

Nah, until they do their job properly, I wont give them any sympathy. And nor do they deserve it. Dr Death doesn't get any sympathy for incompetence, and I extend that same mindset to any one else equally incompetent.


The police are constrained by the courts and in the end they just go with it, they have to deal with this crap for a job, every day , cant be easy.

Nixon in Victoria has turned them into social workers, we need areal hard nose in there knocking heads together backed by a State Govt that gives a rats, Brumby is a waste of space.

BUT if there's trouble they expect the police to come and stand between them and a killer.

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 03:17 PM
But like I said above, what if there are not the programs inside?

Hardly fair if someone is willing to undergo that treatment, and it is not provided, that they are continued to be locked up.


I still dont think there's a case for releasing a mental case thats already offended.

Gees it's 2008 cant they work it out ?

Happy
14th-November-2008, 04:09 PM
No it wouldnt work. It hasnt in other countries, crime rates remain the same or higher.

It is possible that some of these people have deep seeded mental issues and actually need help rather than punishment. Im not condoning what they do, but its obvious that the current system (even with stronger penalties) doesnt work.


Iíll digress a little; we do not have enough money to provide free travel for children to attend school.
We do not have enough money to eliminate hospital elective surgery waiting lists, nor make dental care more affordable, nor have enough police to PREVENT CRIME, nor enough money to provide higher education at better prices that it is now, and the list if almost endless, obesity, diabetics, drugs dependence not to mention that some parents are not fit to raise children (this is where most bad seeds are sprouting)

We do cull problematic animals.

And we worry so much and build more and more >rehabilitation centres< as numbers just keep growing
(We even import more and more problems from overseas Ė just yesterday in Adelaide, Sudanese underage refugees had a knives out day)

I read article that one day there will be not enough carers for those who need care and hard decisions will have to be made,

Until then lets pretend that nothing can be made about everything that is wrong and let the avalanche just roll into too difficult basket.

AlterEgo
14th-November-2008, 04:11 PM
Bailed ? why not lock the creep up till the Court date !!!

Because in this country you're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

MrBurns
14th-November-2008, 04:14 PM
Iíll digress a little; we do not have enough money to provide free travel for children to attend school.
We do not have enough money to eliminate hospital elective surgery waiting lists, nor make dental care more affordable, nor have enough police to PREVENT CRIME, nor enough money to provide higher education at better prices that it is now, and the list if almost endless, obesity, diabetics, drugs dependence not to mention that some parents are not fit to raise children (this is where most bad seeds are sprouting)

We do cull problematic animals.

And we worry so much and build more and more >rehabilitation centres< as numbers just keep growing
(We even import more and more problems from overseas Ė just yesterday in Adelaide, Sudanese underage refugees had a knifes out day)

I read article that one day there will be not enough carers for those who need care and hard decisions will have to be made,

Until then lets pretend that nothing can be made about everything that is wrong and let the avalanche just roll into too difficult basket.

No problem finding a lazy $10.5B for the bailout though, that took ohhhh about 10 minutes.

prawn_86
14th-November-2008, 05:02 PM
No problem finding a lazy $10.5B for the bailout though, that took ohhhh about 10 minutes.

Exactly.

It comes back to mankinds inherent greed and desire to look after oneselves. Politicians do this by looking after those that will keep them in power, banks do this by making sure they are too big to fail so management can keep getting fat paycheques.

There is nothing to entice enough naturally greedy humans to look after others, be it drs, nurses, prison guards etc.

MrBurns
21st-November-2008, 08:46 AM
Another disgraceful example of our laws at work -

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=669330



Girl's sex attacker moves next door


Two weeks ago, the Macquarie Fields man finished serving a sentence of five years and two months for an attack on his young neighbour, and immediately moved back into his home.

Neither can be named for legal reasons.

The man's reappearance has shocked the south-western Sydney community, which has begun distributing flyers naming him as a sex predator and identifying his address.

The girl was 12 when she was abused and was so devastated by the attack she tried to kill herself, she told the Seven Network on Thursday.

She was now living at a friend's home because she was so frightened of the man.

"When I'm here (at home) I stay in my room and I don't talk to anyone, and every time I hear the front door it's like, 'Who's there?'," she said.

Calliope
21st-November-2008, 05:50 PM
Because in this country you're innocent until proven guilty in a court of law.

So murderer Gordon Wood has been innocent for the past 13 years:confused: Do you mean "presumed innocent"? Not many people outside our cumbersome legal system shared this presumption.

MrBurns
24th-November-2008, 06:32 PM
Another lame and disgraceful decision -


Bail for man accused of 11yo's rape

An Adelaide man charged with raping an 11-year-old boy and taking photographs of the alleged assault has been granted bail in the Magistrates Court.

The man and an alleged accomplice have been charged with rape and producing child pornography.

The man, 42, who cannot be named, from Tranmere in Adelaide was arrested by police after a Queensland man went to police about the case.

It is alleged that, in June 2006, the two men lured the boy away from a city skate park in the early hours of the morning.

They are alleged to have sexually assaulted the boy and taken photographs of the attack.

The Adelaide man has been freed on bail, conditional on a midnight to dawn curfew and a ban on loitering around schools, public toilets or other places where children might be present.

The Adelaide man will return to court next month.

white_crane
25th-November-2008, 11:46 PM
Wow, there are quite a few draconian sounding attitudes here...

And whilst I believe that there are some instances where the sentence was too lenient, I'd like to think that we've moved past the times when your hand was cut off for stealing a loaf of bread.



Put your hand up all those who can honestly say that they have never committed any crime.

noirua
26th-November-2008, 07:09 AM
I'm all for setting up work camps where prisoners are sentenced to points. 10 years in prison would be 20,000 work points. After each days work, points out of 10 would be given, and anyone lazing around could stay for a very long time indeed.

Every time a prisoner gets 10 points then $10 would be added to a savings account for them. Improving their chances on release.

Extra points would be added for various offences whilst in custody.

Studying and passing examinations etc., would reduce points and would be an incentive.

MrBurns
19th-December-2008, 09:01 AM
Pathetic -
Police say he is dangerous and should not be approached. what was he doing in home detention ????????????

Incompetent ****wits......


Sydney paedophile on the run

Posted 32 minutes ago

Map: Campbelltown 2560

Sydney police are searching for a convicted paedophile who they say has broken a home detention order.

An arrest warrant has been issued for 28 year-old Troy Myers, who is convicted of aggravated sexual assault of a person under 16.

Police say Myers left his Campbelltown home last Sunday.

He is required to wear an ankle monitor under his parole conditions but police believe he has removed it.

Officers say Myers is white and 184 centimetres tall, with a medium build and short, blond hair.

Police say he is dangerous and should not be approached.

They say he frequents the Bankstown area.

Police are urging anyone with information on his whereabouts to call 000 or Crime Stoppers on 1800 333 000.

Happy
19th-December-2008, 11:40 AM
Police say he is dangerous and should not be approached.




Why was he let go then, bracelet or not?

MrBurns
19th-December-2008, 12:13 PM
Exactly, just lock em' up and throw away the key.
I'm sick of our justice system finding every way possible at great expense to the taxpayer of making life easy for worthless trash.

Calliope
19th-December-2008, 12:17 PM
Most criminals are not sent to jail because the jails are not big enough and and because it costs more to keep them in jail than put them up at the Hilton.

The time will come when there are more predators running loose than victims to prey on.

MrBurns
19th-December-2008, 12:21 PM
Most criminals are not sent to jail because the jails are not big enough and and because it costs more to keep them in jail than put them up at the Hilton.

The time will come when there are more predators running loose than victims to prey on.

I've always been an advocate of building larger jails for that reason.

You cant "punish" a child sex offender, they are sick and should be locked up for good, I'll pay more tax for that project.

Why the hell does it cost so much to keep people in a cage, it's bull****.

Happy
19th-December-2008, 01:06 PM
.. Why the hell does it cost so much to keep people in a cage, it's bull****.


Offenders should contribute more to their keep, with little bit more forced labour they could be not only zero cost but even profitable.


Grafitti vandals and any other vandals could be treated the same way, pay back more to the community than original offence.
This cuould deter from offending in a first place, even if not it would pay to have scum.
Eiher way community would be a winner.

MrBurns
19th-December-2008, 01:11 PM
Offenders should contribute more to their keep, with little bit more forced labour they could be not only zero cost but even profitable.

I guess that would involve someone at Govt level actually thinking, it just wont happen.

MrBurns
22nd-December-2008, 07:30 PM
From the NineMSN web site, another disgraceful sentence.





Youths get detention over fatal bashing

A man sentenced to youth detention for his part in a vicious bashing which killed a university mathematician smiled as he was handed his sentence on Monday.

Victorian Supreme Court Justice David Harper described the actions as "several hours of mad senseless criminality", as he sentenced the 18-year-old, known only as MBA, to three years in a youth detention centre.

His co-accused, WH, was sentenced to two years and eight months in youth detention.

The two men, who cannot be named for legal reasons, were 17 at the time of the attack on January 22 this year.

They went out with a gang of six others looking for someone to rob when they came across Victoria University researcher Zhongjun Cao, 41, who was walking home from work in Footscray at 9.45pm.

The group surrounded Dr Cao and MBA punched him twice in the face, WH pushed him from behind and others continued the assault with punches.

Dr Cao was flung to the ground, hitting his head on the pavement, and then another member of the gang kicked him in the head before the gang stole his wallet and phone.

The researcher died four days later.

WH appeared worried as Justice Harper delivered his sentence but MBA looked at his relatives and smiled.

The sentences were slammed by victims' advocates for being too lenient.

Steve Medcraft, president of People Against Lenient Sentencing, said the fact the men were treated as juveniles was a "sham".

"They were all aware of what they were doing," he said.

"They are old enough to drink, old enough to vote, old enough to join the army yet they are treated as a juvenile, it's an absolute sham."

But Justice Harper said the men had better prospects for rehabilitation in youth detention than in an adult prison, where they would be exposed to "undesirable influences".

Both men pleaded guilty to one count each of manslaughter and robbery relating to the attack on Dr Cao, while WH also pleaded guilty to another count of robbery relating to a second attack.

The gang attacked a second man, Binesh Mosaheb, about 1am on January 23, and WH punched him in the face.

Mr Mosaheb was injured but survived.

The court heard that after the attack on Dr Cao, some gang members had decided to find someone else, preferably an Indian, to rob.

Justice Harper said the fact Mr Mosaheb was Mauritian, not Indian, demonstrated "the mindless ugliness of racism".

He said the attacks were cowardly and carried out on defenceless men.

WH had been subject to racism and bullying himself while at school, the court heard.

MBA will only serve the next two years in detention after spending the past year in custody, while WH has also served almost a year of his sentence.

Two other members of the gang are facing a trial next year over both attacks.

Calliope
22nd-December-2008, 09:46 PM
They probably used the Queensland defence. It goes something like this;

Criminal: Sure judge, I punched him and knocked him down, and I kicked him in the head a few times. But I didn't mean to kill him.

Judge: You didn't mean to kill him?

Criminal: Why would I want to kill him? He was just a random victim.

Judge: That's all right then. I will instruct the jury to acquit you. Just try to keep your assaults non-lethal in future.

Bushman
22nd-December-2008, 11:46 PM
From the NineMSN web site, another disgraceful sentence.

I must say I was shocked at this one too. Three years for going 'curry bashing' and beating a defenseless man to death for a few dollars?

I am all for giving young people a second chance but a man died and the perpetrators get three years? What value a life? I shake my head sometimes.

MrBurns
22nd-January-2009, 01:24 PM
Another one, no matter he killed 2 people he's been a good boy lets let him out among the public.


Man who murdered pregnant wife out early

A man who shot dead his pregnant wife on the NSW south coast will be free within two weeks after being granted parole eight years before his maximum jail term expired.

Brian Corrigan was sentenced to 22 years in prison after shooting his wife Kim twice in the head at their Kiama home in 1992, killing both her and their unborn baby girl.

Corrigan, who was 34 at the time, had waited inside their darkened home before ambushing his 27-year-old wife, who was seven months pregnant.

He initially claimed an intruder had committed the murder, but later blamed voices in his head - a claim the trial judge rejected.

Having served 16 years of his sentence, the NSW State Parole Authority last month issued an "intention to grant parole" to Corrigan, saying he had a blemish-free record in jail.

Aussiejeff
22nd-January-2009, 01:30 PM
Most criminals are not sent to jail because the jails are not big enough and and because it costs more to keep them in jail than put them up at the Hilton.

The time will come when there are more predators running loose than victims to prey on.

What price BIG, EMPTY, DISMAL detention centres?

The Man Of Steel Who Shall Not Be Named chucked loads of half-starved child refugees in 'em.

I can't for the life of me see why recidivist social miscreants can't have an extended holiday in 'em instead. The damned things are ALREADY built - and WAITING to be fed truckloads of society's trash.


aj

Julia
22nd-January-2009, 03:11 PM
What price BIG, EMPTY, DISMAL detention centres?

The Man Of Steel Who Shall Not Be Named chucked loads of half-starved child refugees in 'em.

I can't for the life of me see why recidivist social miscreants can't have an extended holiday in 'em instead. The damned things are ALREADY built - and WAITING to be fed truckloads of society's trash.


aj
Completely agree. And without air conditioning.

Calliope
22nd-January-2009, 03:54 PM
I can't for the life of me see why recidivist social miscreants can't have an extended holiday in 'em instead. The damned things are ALREADY built - and WAITING to be fed truckloads of society's trash.


The problem is that what we see as trash, our judicial system sees as treasure worth recycling...over and over.

Happy
22nd-January-2009, 04:31 PM
The problem is that what we see as trash, our judicial system sees as treasure worth recycling...over and over.

Using a little bit of conspiracy therory there could be some self-interest in it.

More crims out, more trouble, more cases, longer queues, guaranteed job for yonks, good pay too and community respect.

You cannot ask for more!

Aussiejeff
22nd-January-2009, 04:47 PM
Using a little bit of conspiracy therory there could be some self-interest in it.

More crims out, more trouble, more cases, longer queues, guaranteed job for yonks, good pay too and community respect.

You cannot ask for more!

I'm Happy to announce you get the Daily Lateral Thinking Award!

Indeed, what is probably the BIGGEST business in Oz?

CRIME!!!

Crime & Co. employs an awesome number of: Lawyers, judges, solicitors, police, jail wardens, journos, pollies, all manner of contractors & service providers and of course the BIGGEST employment category of all - CRIMS! :)

Yep. I'm with you Happy. We need to spend MORE on creating crime!! Anyone want to help me set up a MegaPonzi scheme? LOL


aj

orr
23rd-January-2009, 08:52 PM
grammer, sintax, pro's, spell'n, general litracy, not just the sentancing

MrBurns
3rd-February-2009, 09:02 AM
Child molestors get less than this in some cases, I guess thats because the judiciary are more sympathetic to child molestors than graffitti artists, perhaps because they identify more closely with them.



Sydney teenager jailed for graffiti

An 18-year-old woman with no criminal record has been jailed for three months for writing one word of graffiti on the wall of an inner-Sydney cafe.

Cheyene Back, from Daceyville, admitted using a black Texta marker to write "2shie", a word which was 30cm high and 60cm in length.

In the Downing Centre Local Court on Monday, Magistrate Ian McRae jailed her for three months, but another magistrate later granted her unconditional bail pending an appeal.

She pleaded guilty to intentionally or recklessly damaging a brick wall, the property of Hyde Park Cafe, between 11.50pm and 11.55pm (AEDT) on January 11, 2009.

The cafe is seeking $200 compensation.

According to the police facts sheet, Back had been with a co-accused, a 22-year-old man, and five other people when CCTV footage captured the man holding the marker and writing graffiti, approximately 50cm high and 70cm in length.

"The wording of the graffiti was unable to be identified," the facts said.

He was then seen to hand over the marker to Back, who wrote 2shie before returning it to the co-accused who wrote some more graffiti, again unable to be identified.

Police then went to the scene and arrested the pair.

Back's appeal is listed for March 4 in the NSW District Court.

Her sentence comes two days after the NSW government launched a new campaign to combat graffiti, saying it costs about $100 million a year to clean it up.

On Saturday, acting Police Minister Kristina Keneally said the government was cracking down on people who sprayed graffiti.

Measures were in place such as making it an offence for businesses to sell spray paint to people under 18 and giving police the power to confiscate spray paint from unsupervised juveniles, she said.

cuttlefish
3rd-February-2009, 09:57 AM
Yeah this is ridiculous - no prior offences, 18 years old and she pleaded guilty. What a ridiculously harsh sentence when multiple offenders get good behaviour bonds for anything from break and enter to rape. She carried out the act with a male friend that handed her the paint - I mean she's 18, easily influenced and was probably trying to prove herself to her man. A better sentence would be to have her cleaning graffitti as community service work for a few months.

The judges are senile.

Bushman
3rd-February-2009, 10:08 AM
Yeah this is ridiculous - no prior offences, 18 years old and she pleaded guilty. What a ridiculously harsh sentence when multiple offenders get good behaviour bonds for anything from break and enter to rape. She carried out the act with a male friend that handed her the paint - I mean she's 18, easily influenced and was probably trying to prove herself to her man. A better sentence would be to have her cleaning graffitti as community service work for a few months.

The judges are senile.

Please tell me she has not had a conviction recorded? That will ruin her ability to get work. Talk about a punishment completely out of proportion to a $200 crime.

Yet, in melbourne, there is a story about the on-going trauma of a family of lecturer (a Mr Cao) who was beaten to death by a group of cowardly thugs. The perpetartors sentence - two years in juvenile detention!! Two f'cken years for a man's life. I am shocked by the manifest inadequacy of that sentence. Apparently they had gone out looking for someone to bash 'who would not fight back'. The family's trauma has been amplified by the ridiculous sentence.

What value a 30cm grafitti scrawl, what value an educated man's life?

MrBurns
3rd-February-2009, 10:15 AM
Yet, in melbourne, there is a story about the on-going trauma of a family of lecturer (a Mr Cao) who was beaten to death by a group of cowardly thugs. The perpetartors sentence - two years in juvenile detention!! Two f'cken years for a man's life. I am shocked by the manifest inadequacy of that sentence. Apparently they had gone out looking for someone to bash 'who would not fight back'. The family's trauma has been amplified by the ridiculous sentence.

What value a 30cm grafitti scrawl, what value an educated man's life?

I'm suprised there isnt more retribution.

Aussiejeff
3rd-February-2009, 10:34 AM
I'm suprised there isnt more retribution.

That's because we, the people, have been suffocating & drowning in a sea of total, abject judgemental mediocrity for far, far too long. Like having to sit through endless, boring, ridiculous TV ads, we are becoming numbed by the ineptitude of our judiciary system. :banghead:

Frankly, when you are an o-o-o-ld fart of 58 like me and have just read about the 10,000th "totally inadequate" sentence, it's hard to think anymore of what can be done - apart from a people's revolution.

And that's another story in another thread....

Trevor_S
3rd-February-2009, 10:40 AM
A better sentence would be to have her cleaning graffitti as community service work for a few months.

I don't think that is an option, my understanding is the Union movement lobbied Government some time ago so that community service orders can't be used where there is a chance of taking someones job.

It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...

nunthewiser
3rd-February-2009, 10:48 AM
It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...

no ppl are wondering why a FIRST OFFENDER on a minor crime was jailed ....geez a bloke in perth years back killed a cabbie and ended up doing 6 months .nick somethin or other .balga boy .you think that was fair ?

a pedophile gets 3-6 ,months for DESTROYING someones life PLUS gets counselling and allsorts of programs PLUS locked away in there own lil special section . you think thats fair ?

some silly little girl that did a cupla hundred bucks damage to property on a first offense gets jailed for 3 months with other hardened crims and maybe to become one herself from the experience .you think thats fair ?

i think what people are trying to point out IS that the justice system is full of ****

Julia
3rd-February-2009, 11:06 AM
I don't think that is an option, my understanding is the Union movement lobbied Government some time ago so that community service orders can't be used where there is a chance of taking someones job.

It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...
Trevor, I think it's more the inconsistencies that are so mind boggling.
A jail sentence for a word of graffiti is surely way over the top, but repeatedly there are examples of pathetically inadequate sentences when someone's life has been taken or irreparably damaged.

MrBurns
3rd-February-2009, 11:22 AM
It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...

Well they are both arent they, I think some judges simply do not understand the concept of "justice".

As far as retribution goes it will happen if the certain pro active people are wronged by a judges incompetance.

cuttlefish
3rd-February-2009, 11:25 AM
It seems interesting reading this thread here and other threads on other sites that people can't make their minds up, judges are either too lenient or too harsh... apparently...

As Julia say's - its the lack of consistency thats aggravating. In Queensland nine males that gang raped a 10 year old girl in 2007 (the oldest male was 26) all got off without any jail sentence.

So what does the sentencing system tell us? gang rape isn't as bad as graffitti? :eek::rolleyes:

The judge should go to blinking jail for being a brain dead senile idiot.

MrBurns
3rd-February-2009, 11:28 AM
I seriously believe there is a section of the judiciary that are pedophile sympathizers and others who think rape is the womans fault or not a serious crime.

Happy
3rd-February-2009, 03:43 PM
From ABC, 3 Feb. 09

REES APPLAUDS TEEN VANDAL'S JAIL SENTENCE

New South Wales Premier Nathan Rees has welcomed a three-month jail term imposed on an 18-year-old woman for writing graffiti on the wall of a Sydney cafe.
Magistrate Ian McRae handed the sentence to first-time offender Cheyane Back yesterday for vandalising the wall of the Hyde Park cafe with a black marker last month.
The 18-year-old had pleaded guilty to damaging or destroying property.
She has been granted unconditional bail and has already lodged an appeal against the sentence, to be heard next month.
But Mr Rees says the jail sentence is fair.
"Everywhere I go, graffiti is an issue," he said.
"This sends a message that it's not something that the community regards as a frivolous offence.

"It is something that affects not only the aesthetic but people's sense of safety around the place if they see graffiti around and they think there is other anti-social behaviour going with it.
"I think a three-month jail term is absolutely appropriate."
But University of New South Wales criminologist Professor Chris Cunneen says the jail sentence does not match the scale of the crime.
"In the adult courts, a normal sort of penalty in relation to that offence would be a fine of some sort and some form of restitution for the property owner," he said.

"But I think there are other ways of approaching it. I'm not suggesting that a fine is the best way to do it.
"We've got some great examples from the Children's Court in terms of youth justice conferencing, which has been used in relation to graffiti, where you bring the offender together with the victim of the crime.
"You reach some sort of resolution and the offender is held responsible for the offence that's been committed and I think that's a much more preferable way of dealing with this."

Professor Cunneen says the cost of imprisoning someone for three months is far greater than the price of cleaning up graffiti.

"We'd have to be talking $30,000 or $40,000 simply for her incarceration alone, let alone her legal costs," he said.

Anti-vandalism community group Graffiti Hurts has meanwhile applauded the sentence, saying graffiti costs Australian taxpayers $500 million a year.



Agree with previous posters that penalties are disproportionate, but I would lift charges for - murder, rape, arson and few other things like drugs production and sale.

3 months jail for graffiti looks perfectly OK to me and I agree with Mr Rees’ comment.

Of course if I could suggest, jails should be self sufficient, as well as penalty should include few thousand hours of community work preferably cleaning up graffiti.

Penalty must be so bad, that potential offenders would think twice before offending, as it is now it is out of hand.

MrBurns
3rd-February-2009, 04:04 PM
Agree with previous posters that penalties are disproportionate, but I would lift charges for - murder, rape, arson and few other things like drugs production and sale.

3 months jail for graffiti looks perfectly OK to me and I agree with Mr Reesí comment.

Of course if I could suggest, jails should be self sufficient, as well as penalty should include few thousand hours of community work preferably cleaning up graffiti.

Penalty must be so bad, that potential offenders would think twice before offending, as it is now it is out of hand.

I dont agree at all, if they were going to pick on someone why didnt they get one of the gangs that do this all day, pathetic action by a pathetic system.

Bushman
3rd-February-2009, 04:20 PM
I dont agree at all, if they were going to pick on someone why didnt they get one of the gangs that do this all day, pathetic action by a pathetic system.

Its like busting kids at music festivals for drugs using sniffer dogs. Seems that the girl who died at the Perth Big Day Out panicked when she saw the sniffer dogs and consumed her whole stash, leading to her overdose and death. Now her death is self-induced to a degree but, at 17, you do stupid reckless things and society should be trying to protect you from your own immature decision-making. The police and sniffer dogs should be at the airports and ports busting the malicious gangs that import these gawd awful substances, not scaring kids who have a few pills on them for recreational use into taking their stash!! Bloody stupid, highly foreseeable, and another kid that has been sacrificed to the system.

And I am sure the 'tough on crims' Premier of WA will be supporting the cops on this too.

MrBurns
3rd-February-2009, 04:22 PM
Doncha sometimes just feel like joining the Hells Angels or the Mafia, they know justice and how to dish it out.

gav
3rd-February-2009, 05:49 PM
6 months ago my coach's cousin was stabbed after school. After being beaten up by a gang of 6, two guys held him, whilst one stabbed him through the left side of the chest. Missed the heart by 1cm. Poor kid was in intensive care for a week, in hospital for months and missed half of year12 and exams because of it.

Only 2 of the offenders where tried. The hearing was yesterday. 6 months jail for attempted murder and causing grevious bodily harm. WTF?! Pathetic...

nunthewiser
3rd-February-2009, 06:00 PM
wanna hear a story ??

a VERY good friend of mine took his wife and 2 kids to a WA country hotel one saturday night .

a local and his mate decided to stir him up by being rude and disrespectful to his wife

he sent his wife and his kids back to the hotel room which is part of the pub and took this local lad outside and gave him a slap to correct his manners , after which he returned to his hotel room to order room service for dinner instead of the hassle of eating in the pub

the two locals followed him to his room and promptly kicked the door in and attempted to attack him

he stabbed the pair of them with his steak knife to defend himself and his family

he is currently in casurina prison serving a sentence of 7 years awaiting his apeal on grounds of self defence .

is this justice ?

admiteddly he may have turned the other cheek regarding being in the pub and retaliating in the first place to there smut and disrespect to his family . how many of YOU would ? i know i wouldnt .

a good man caught in a bad situation

i apologise if this is innapropriate for this thread and maybe most here couldnt care less but to me its a bloody farce that this man is jailed for standing up and protecting himself and his family

MrBurns
3rd-February-2009, 06:22 PM
wanna hear a story ??

a VERY good friend of mine took his wife and 2 kids to a WA country hotel one saturday night .

a local and his mate decided to stir him up by being rude and disrespectful to his wife

he sent his wife and his kids back to the hotel room which is part of the pub and took this local lad outside and gave him a slap to correct his manners , after which he returned to his hotel room to order room service for dinner instead of the hassle of eating in the pub

the two locals followed him to his room and promptly kicked the door in and attempted to attack him

he stabbed the pair of them with his steak knife to defend himself and his family

he is currently in casurina prison serving a sentence of 7 years awaiting his apeal on grounds of self defence .

is this justice ?

admiteddly he may have turned the other cheek regarding being in the pub and retaliating in the first place to there smut and disrespect to his family . how many of YOU would ? i know i wouldnt .

a good man caught in a bad situation

i apologise if this is innapropriate for this thread and maybe most here couldnt care less but to me its a bloody farce that this man is jailed for standing up and protecting himself and his family

Don.t aplogise Nun thats what this thread is all about. The BS that goes on daily is beyond a joke but I dont see anyone doing anything about it, this is the SYSTEM and thats it,

I'm going to think hard before I vote next time.

MrBurns
3rd-February-2009, 06:24 PM
6 months ago my coach's cousin was stabbed after school. After being beaten up by a gang of 6, two guys held him, whilst one stabbed him through the left side of the chest. Missed the heart by 1cm. Poor kid was in intensive care for a week, in hospital for months and missed half of year12 and exams because of it.

Only 2 of the offenders where tried. The hearing was yesterday. 6 months jail for attempted murder and causing grevious bodily harm. WTF?! Pathetic...

If you were related to that kid you'd feel inclined to organise a welcome for those guys when they got out.

gav
3rd-February-2009, 06:31 PM
Far out, I really feel for your friend Nun... The topic for this thread is "Sentencing in Australia is a disgrace", so your story is definitely relevant.

I could have been in a similar situation myself last week. On one of the 40 degree nights my g/f and I walked to the corner store for an ice cream. We walked past a drunken yobbo. He stood in front of me and said "Hot b*** you got there" (referring to my g/f). He also mentioned other explicits referring what he would like to do to my g/f, obviously I'm not going to post what he said. From the look on his face, it was obvious he wanted to fight.

He had an older man with him (in his 50's, possibly his Dad?) who tried to drag him away. It took everything in me NOT to smash him. We just walked away.

I now know I did the right thing. Can you imagine if I punched him and he hit his head on the concrete path? I would be stuffed if it went to court - he was drunk, so they'd say he wasn't responsible for his actions. I would have been the one that hit him first, making me the aggressor. He would have had severe injuries, at worst I would have busted knuckles. Oh, and I outweigh him by a good 20KG.

I wish your friend all the best for his appeal.

MrBurns
5th-February-2009, 12:20 PM
How dare the authorities allow this piece of **** out to mix mith you and I


Wife killer walks free -

Convicted murderer Brian Corrigan has been released from a Sydney jail after serving his minimum 16-and-a-half-year jail sentence for killing his pregnant wife.

Corrigan was sentenced to up to 22 years' jail for shooting his wife, Kim, in the head in their Kiama home on the New South Wales south coast in 1992.

She was seven months pregnant.

At Corrigan's trial, the then 32-year-old claimed first that an intruder had committed the murder, then blamed voices in his head.

The State Parole Authority decided at his first parole hearing last month that he could walk free at age 50, saying he had been a model prisoner.

The conditions of Corrigan's release include not contacting the family of his dead wife, staying away from Kiama, Terrigal and Bowral, and not leaving New South Wales or Australia without permission.

The convicted murderer had nothing to say as he walked free from Silverwater Jail this morning.

His wife's family last month said it was disappointed by the decision to release him.

The State Opposition also criticised the Parole Authority's decision, saying it should have kept Corrigan in jail longer because of the family's concerns and the murderer's history of deception.

Shadow attorney general Greg Smith suggested Corrigan had conned the Parole Authority.

Mr Smith admitted he knew nothing of the murderer's conduct in prison.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/02/05/2482945.htm

pilots
5th-February-2009, 12:34 PM
wanna hear a story ??

a VERY good friend of mine took his wife and 2 kids to a WA country hotel one saturday night .

a local and his mate decided to stir him up by being rude and disrespectful to his wife

he sent his wife and his kids back to the hotel room which is part of the pub and took this local lad outside and gave him a slap to correct his manners , after which he returned to his hotel room to order room service for dinner instead of the hassle of eating in the pub

the two locals followed him to his room and promptly kicked the door in and attempted to attack him

he stabbed the pair of them with his steak knife to defend himself and his family

he is currently in casurina prison serving a sentence of 7 years awaiting his apeal on grounds of self defence .

is this justice ?

admiteddly he may have turned the other cheek regarding being in the pub and retaliating in the first place to there smut and disrespect to his family . how many of YOU would ? i know i wouldnt .

a good man caught in a bad situation

i apologise if this is innapropriate for this thread and maybe most here couldnt care less but to me its a bloody farce that this man is jailed for standing up and protecting himself and his family

What bugs me is your friend got seven years, had he had been in trouble b4, and on drugs he would of only got a two year good behaver bond, the sentencing is a joke.

Calliope
12th-February-2009, 06:18 PM
It took nearly a week of court trial wasting the judiciary's time and costing the taxpayer scores of thousands to find out what every man and his dog knew...that Angela Liati is a liar. And the judge told her she is not likely to get a custodial sentence. And she is going to appeal.:dunno:

MrBurns
12th-February-2009, 06:30 PM
It took nearly a week of court trial wasting the judiciary's time and costing the taxpayer scores of thousands to find out what every man and his dog knew...that Angela Liati is a liar. And the judge told her she is not likely to get a custodial sentence. And she is going to appeal.:dunno:

If our taxes were spent properly you could probably halve them.

Calliope
19th-February-2009, 12:27 PM
Sentencing is a problem. When to remit the sentence and let them out is also a problem.

In England, doctors have decided that Peter Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ripper mass murderer, is no longer dangerous and is fit for release. A psychiatrist said
He is effectively cured as long as he never stops taking medication

He is 62 and has been in jail for 28 years, the last 25 of which have been in Broadmoor where he was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

MrBurns
19th-February-2009, 12:30 PM
Sentencing is a problem. When to remit the sentence and let them out is also a problem.

In England, doctors have decided that Peter Sutcliffe the Yorkshire Ripper mass murderer, is no longer dangerous and is fit for release. A psychiatrist said

He is 62 and has been in jail for 28 years, the last 25 of which have been in Broadmoor where he was diagnosed with schizophrenia.

Why would you let him out, what sort of life would he have anyway, In a pub "Yes I'm the Yorkshire ripper but I'm ok now", 50 people move to the other end of the bar.
I'ts just bull****, he should be kept in jail, any fool can see that.

Calliope
19th-February-2009, 12:52 PM
Why would you let him out, what sort of life would he have anyway, In a pub "Yes I'm the Yorkshire ripper but I'm ok now", 50 people move to the other end of the bar.

Yes, and if he is anything like me after a few pints he will forget to take his medication. The girls on the game will be diving for cover then.

MrBurns
19th-February-2009, 01:01 PM
His medication has only been tested in jail wait till he gets out and sees all the lovely future victims, he's got a lot to catch up on.

It's a waste of time and money to even consider releasing people like this, it's wrong. it's unwise, it's risky, it's unjust to the victims relatives and not an action that people who pay taxes want their money applied to, they expect better.

Happy
19th-February-2009, 04:04 PM
..

It's a waste of time and money to even consider releasing people like this, it's wrong. it's unwise, it's risky, it's unjust to the victims relatives and not an action that people who pay taxes want their money applied to, they expect better.


Thatís why I believe that some are only good for spare parts, if somebody doesnít mind the >connection<

daisy
20th-February-2009, 01:16 AM
I have a friend who was dragged off the street, bashed in the head with a rock, raped and left for dead. (in Qld) She survived.
The b. was caught but because he was a non-secretor (?) it couldn’t be proven. He walked from the court a free man.
This isn't such a big town. I also knew one of the jurors. He didn't know my friend but he was very unhappy about the verdict. He said that given what they had to go on,the jury had no choice.
After this, it was then revealed that the rapist was on parole (and guilty of violating his parole by going AWOL) in S.A. for exactly the same offence. And that was not his first sexual offence. Memory fails me, but there were at least 2 others prior to that. This couldn't be revealed during the court case because it was predujicial
He was returned to S.A.
About a year later, my friend received a phone call from a journalist informing her that this animal had done it yet again and what were her comments.

I have another friend who works for Correctional Services (Probation and Parole.) One aspect of his job is jailhouse programmes for sexual offenders. I'm not saying he isn't an intelligent man but his qualifications are an Arts degree with a major in English Literature.

Happy
20th-February-2009, 02:47 PM
From ABC, 20 Feb. 09

MEDIA BANNED FROM COURT FOR 'BREATHTAKING HYPOCRISY'

A Sydney judge has banned the media from hearing the case of four youths who allegedly subjected a 13-year-old girl to repeated sex offences.
The four young men, who cannot be identified, pleaded guilty to sexual offences against a 13-year-old girl in public toilets in Bankstown and Yagoona.
Before hearing sentencing submissions, defence lawyers told the court two commercial television stations had shown "breathtaking hypocrisy" by identifying a number of the youths in their broadcasts.
The court heard that, as a result, the youths received phone calls from neighbours and distant acquaintances who had not previously known about the case.
The judge ruled the youths' future rehabilitation prospects had been jeopardised as a result of their identities being exposed.
He banned the media from further hearings to avoid any more damage to the youths.


Not exactly on subject as four alleged offenders not sentenced yet, but the biggest concern is for >rehabilitation prospects< and >to avoid any more damage to the youths<


I hope similar or better care is offered toward a 13-year old.

Calliope
21st-February-2009, 12:07 AM
NewsCom


Swimming champion Nick D'Arcy admits to alcohol problem in sentencing hearing.
DíArcy awaits his fate
NICK D'Arcy has personally apologised for a devastating punch he landed on a fellow swimmer, but admits he drunkenly threatened a bouncer last month saying "one hit is all it takes".

"That statement was made to try and disarm any physical altercation (with the bouncer)," D'Arcy told a magistrate at his sentencing hearing today in Sydney's Downing Centre Local Court.

D'Arcy, 21, has pleaded guilty to recklessly inflicting grievous bodily harm on Commonwealth Games gold medallist Simon Cowley in an inner-Sydney bar in March 2008.

I doubt very much whether this young thug will get a jail sentence, even though he has a history of violent thuggery

In the past this spoilt brat's rich doting parents have tried to keep him out of the news with the chequebook

Simon Cowley received some very nasty injuries. I hope he sues D'Arcy for everything he and his parents have got.

daisy
21st-February-2009, 08:22 AM
Our paper reports most court cases each day. There was one particular lawyer who made a name for himself representing every piece of scum in this town. He's gone from here now, but I used to wonder how he slept at night for worrying about his children walking the streets with the rapists and child molestors he had helped put in their path.

nulla nulla
21st-February-2009, 09:36 AM
Maybe it is time to rethink the merits of capital punishment for serious crimes. A short drop with a quick stop would eliminate the expense of prolonged detention and repeat offending after release from serving sentences. These people are rarely rehabilitated. Making hangings public may be a better deterant to those misguided copy cat criminals. These days, with all the sensational media attention criminals get, it often appears that the media is trying to make the criminals look like the ones that are hard done by, instead of the victoms.

daisy
21st-February-2009, 10:54 AM
While I have also expressed similar thoughts, regarding the death sentence, from time to time, itís usually been in frustration at sentencing and recidivism. I kind of understood the facebook posts. But, I donít know if I would actually be comfortable with the reality.
I think society needs to move away from the idea of punishment of sociopathic offenders and instead move towards the notion of protecting the rest of us from such people. Lock them up and throw away the key would achieve this without causing all the emotional conflict regarding death sentencing.
If it means that we, as taxpayers, have to support them for the rest of their miserable lives then personally I think thatís a small price to pay for our protection and security.

Calliope
21st-February-2009, 11:28 AM
I think society needs to move away from the idea of punishment of sociopathic offenders and instead move towards the notion of protecting the rest of us from such people. Lock them up and throw away the key would achieve this without causing all the emotional conflict regarding death sentencing.
If it means that we, as taxpayers, have to support them for the rest of their miserable lives then personally I think thatís a small price to pay for our protection and security.

Daisy you are right. Dare I suggest the dreaded words "Concentration Camps" where the predators could be segregated quite cheaply, and at the same time put to useful employment.;)

Happy
21st-February-2009, 01:16 PM
While I have also expressed similar thoughts, regarding the death sentence, from time to time, itís usually been in frustration at sentencing and recidivism. I kind of understood the facebook posts. But, I donít know if I would actually be comfortable with the reality.

..




I donít have the same hesitation; maybe I got used to life being snuffed out for no reason, that I quietly accept the need of terminal punishment too.

In Australia annual road fatality about 1000 a year, US about 25,000 a year.
Various accidents, recent bushfire took 208, maybe more.

There are numerous murders too, so for me few more few less doesnít make that much difference.

I rather see them as liability, there is danger of wrongful death, but it would not be deliberate and taking into account that so many innocent lives are taken out for no other reason than being in a wrong place, I can live with that too.

I would rather spend $60,000 a year for the rest of life on free dental care / hospitals instead any day.

In recession it makes even more sense.

Maybe one day.


But Australia is not alone with lenient sentencing >




From ABC, 20 Feb. 09

MEN GET LIFE FOR NZ DRIVE-BY SHOOTING
By New Zealand correspondent Kerri Ritchie

In New Zealand, six men have been sent to jail for their involvement in a drive by shooting which killed a two-year-old girl.
Jhia Te Tua died instantly when members of the Mongrel Mob gang fired shots into her home in the north island city of Wanganui in 2007.
The two-year-old was hit by a bullet as she lay sleeping on the couch.
The group meant to kill her father who was a member of the rival Black Power gang.
The two men who planned and carried out the attack, Karl Check and Hayden Wallace, were jailed for life.
The judge described their actions as disgraceful and chilling and set a minimum non-parole period of 15 years.
Four others who were involved were also jailed.
A line of police had to separate rival gang members in court.

Calliope
21st-February-2009, 02:13 PM
It's a crazy world. The other day we were talking about the dangers of releasing the Yorkshire ripper. The doctors say he will not re-offend providing he continues to take his schizophrenia medication.

And now we have the case of Cornelia Rau being arrested in Jordan for behaving erratically after failing to take her medication. The very rich Ms Rau has, of course, many supporters and advisers, and they are blaming the Australian authorities for failing to protect her. Ironically the only way to make Ms Rau take her medication would be to lock her up again, and that could lead to another compo claim.

NewsCom

Cornelia Rau detained
AUSTRALIAN consular officials in Jordan have met with a South Australian woman, believed to be Cornelia Rau, who was detained by local authorities on Wednesday.
Ms Rau was wrongfully detained by Australian immigration officials four years ago.

She has reportedly been wandering the Middle East for months without taking her psychosis medication, causing her to behave erratically.

A Department of Foreign Affairs (DFAT) spokesman said consular officials met with a 43-year-old woman in Amman on Thursday.

He said the woman refused consular assistance. "Our consular staff remain ready to assist at any time," the spokesman said.

The spokesman could not confirm the woman was Ms Rau.

Last year, the Federal Government paid German-born Ms Rau $2.6 million in compensation for the 10 months she was wrongfully detained at a Brisbane jail and South Australia's Baxter detention centre.

Authorities had mistakenly believed she was an illegal immigrant.

She was sent to an Adelaide mental hospital after being found in the detention centre.

Happy
21st-February-2009, 03:19 PM
It's a crazy world.



Another example >



From Illawarra Mercury, 19/02/2009 9:56:00 AM

ILLAWARRA FAMILY LEFT DESTITUTE BY KILLER
BY MICHELLE HOCTOR

The family of murdered Woonona miner Stephen Holmes has been forced into crisis housing after losing their home.
Wife Angela and her daughters were evicted just after Christmas when she was unable to continue the rental payments on what was intended to be the family's dream home.
Mrs Holmes is now grappling with how one man's act of violence has robbed her of almost everything she held dear.
"We were just the Joneses, just a normal family with a wonderful husband and father who worked hard as a coalminer to give us a better life," she said. "Now it's just me and the girls and setbacks keep happening to the point where I'm just speechless."
Since her husband was shot and killed by neighbour Stanley Maguire 15 months ago, Mrs Holmes has been on a hellish journey that has included post-traumatic stress disorder and drug addiction.

Today she lives in a Wollongong unit with her two daughters and Mr Holmes' eldest child from a previous relationship, waiting for rental accommodation to become available that will meet her $250-a-week budget.
"Stephen's murder led to a severe drug addiction for me. I tried to numb what was going on," Mrs Holmes said. "I took drugs to go to sleep and drugs to wake up.

"I pulled myself out of it ... I never want to go back there again."
Mrs Holmes, 31, said she was still haunted by the nightmare of November 24, 2007, when her husband, a father of four girls aged three to 18, rushed into the street outside their home to confront Maguire, only to be fatally shot in the chest.

"John (as Maguire was known) was mouthing off about my husband. Steve was sitting on the front porch just listening. But then he said something about me and the kids and that was it. Steve took off."
It emerged later that 59-year-old Maguire, a paranoid schizophrenic, had been convicted of manslaughter in 1994 and served almost eight years in prison before being released in 2002.

He was relocated to a Department of Housing home in Lassiter Ave, where he allegedly verbally abused his neighbours before killing Mr Holmes, 41. Maguire fled the scene and his car was found abandoned on the Central Coast.
Skeletal remains were discovered by a bushwalker last October, just 40m from where Maguire's car was found.

A preliminary examination suggested Maguire may have killed himself with a shotgun.
Four months later, DNA tests to positively identify Maguire's body have still not been finalised.
Mrs Holmes is suing the NSW Government for failing to protect the community from Maguire.
(But) at the moment I am just trying to get us settled with a roof over our head. We are so desperately trying to rebuild our lives."





Of course, miner could die in a road accident or mining accident, but he didnít and died from hand of paranoid schizophrenic!

Julia
21st-February-2009, 03:24 PM
Jail is not the place for people who are mentally ill.

Once upon a time we had functional psychiatric institutions with secure wings where people whose violent behaviour made them unsafe to be at large were kept. Better for them and better for the community.

The whole experiment of 'treating mentally ill people within the community' has been a dismal failure.

MrBurns
21st-February-2009, 03:29 PM
It emerged later that 59-year-old Maguire, a paranoid schizophrenic, had been convicted of manslaughter in 1994 and served almost eight years in prison before being released in 2002.

I wish these people who are so clever and release these creeps actually were the ones who were effected:banghead:

daisy
21st-February-2009, 05:28 PM
Jail is not the place for people who are mentally ill.

Once upon a time we had functional psychiatric institutions with secure wings where people whose violent behaviour made them unsafe to be at large were kept. Better for them and better for the community.

The whole experiment of 'treating mentally ill people within the community' has been a dismal failure.

Agree Julia. Deinstitutionalisation was just a cynical cost cutting exercise. Apart from the criminally insane there are so many others with psychiatric illnesses who have suffered neglect from this policy. (small town... I see them every day...some are kind of local identities)

What I have always found puzzling is the definition of criminally insane. e.g. your everyday murdering raping psychopath is, in most cases, not considered so.

Julia
21st-February-2009, 10:58 PM
What I have always found puzzling is the definition of criminally insane. e.g. your everyday murdering raping psychopath is, in most cases, not considered so.
They're not considered insane because they have full awareness of right and wrong This is a pretty good summary of the psychopathic personality:

http://law.jrank.org/pages/1885/Psychopathy-Psychopathy-criminal-law.html

traderc
22nd-February-2009, 01:05 AM
They aren't.

There are stories here of prisoners wanting to help other prisoners to learn how to read, but are disallowed from doing so. No wonder they end up back there. :rolleyes:


They're not in jail to better themselves; they've had that chance in the outside world before they committed the crime. They're in there to serve the time they've been sentenced to. Why should the government be providing any services to prisoners. They should be locked in cells the entire time with a food slot and a window when it comes time to get out, they get out; that simple.



And there have been recent cases where prisoners are released without having the appropriate treatment (sex offenders) when they were having that treatment on the outside, which is a disgrace.


Sex offenders shouldn't be let out. They don't understand the word NO. Even a dog understands that simple command if you train it properly. Don't give me this crap about "they're insane, they didn't know what they were doing".

I believe all men have the capacity for rape; the difference is most know when to stop themselves or at least ask permission first.



Most of them have jobs inside.

Most of the jobs they do hardly pay for their crimes they committed is what the previous poster was getting at. They should be worked till they collapse then be at it again the next day. Today's sentences hardly fit the severity of their crimes.



Or you don't have a clue.

You must be one of those civil libetarian types. What if it was your child that was raped or your brother or sister murdered or a family member that was run down by a drunk idiot in a car? Sure you wouldn't think it was funny then.

Amazing how often people look at a crime and the resulting sentence and think, "pathetic, they should have gotten longer". What does that tell you? That the government, that used to be for the people is now hardly anything of the sort and the "do-gooders" that are trying to save the criminals from themselves should be taking more of a "rot in hell" type stance.

For the final year of their sentence I think they should maybe be moved to a reasonable type share accommodation like a parole system where they have to report in still but they live with some type of guardian (non-prisoner) to help get them work that they HAVE TO STAY AT and assist their reintegration into society and show them how to live a settled "human" life again; not that of the animal they used to be.

...and anyone has the capacity to become an animal. Back anyone into a corner and abuse them and they'll turn, be sure of it.

Christian

daisy
22nd-February-2009, 12:20 PM
.

Sex offenders shouldn't be let out. They don't understand the word NO. Even a dog understands that simple command if you train it properly. Don't give me this crap about "they're insane, they didn't know what they were doing".

Christian

Agree.
My question about criminal insanity was in support of this statement not against it. If they are not redeemable/treatable then why let them out?
If you forget about punishing them and just work on protecting us from them...
Calliope's 'concentration camp' suggestion seems highly practical.

Thanks for that article Julia. It explained it very well.

daisy
22nd-February-2009, 12:34 PM
Apart from the sentencing of sociopaths and psychopaths, which put all of us at risk, is the other question of sentencing people who do not fit into the above category.
What is this rubbish about a judge handing down, say a fifteen year sentence, and then in the next breath substantially reducing it?
And also the one that allows offenders to serve sentences concurrently?
How insulting is that to the victims of these offenders?

nulla nulla
24th-February-2009, 07:40 AM
Hang murderers, Castrate violent sex offenders, multiple crimes multiple sentence (no concurrent sentences) throw away the key and forget all this bulldust about criminal rights. They couldn't respect the rights of others and accordingly thier rights are forfeit.

Happy
24th-February-2009, 04:48 PM
Hang murderers, Castrate violent sex offenders, multiple crimes multiple sentence (no concurrent sentences) throw away the key and forget all this bulldust about criminal rights. They couldn't respect the rights of others and accordingly thier rights are forfeit.


Looks like perfect start to slowly change this great country to safer place for all those who just want to live safely here.

Calliope
24th-February-2009, 06:10 PM
No mention of what the victim had to say about all this.

SMH


Teen 'drunk for first time' raped woman, 82
February 24, 2009 - 3:52PM
A teenager who raped an elderly woman in a Sydney park has been jailed for at least three years.

Robert el-Chammas, 18, approached the 82-year-old woman while she was walking through the park in Anzac Avenue, West Ryde, early on May 11 last year.

The NSW District Court was told that the night before the attack el-Chammas had been drunk for the first time, and had no memory of the incident.

The court heard that el-Chammas approached the woman from behind and threw her to the ground.

The teenager had been drinking with friends in Kings Cross the previous night, his barrister Ian McClintock, SC, said.

He said the teenager spent $200 on a shout that night, and got drunk for the first time.

"He indicates that in his life he has never been drunk before and he is at a loss to explain his behaviour," Mr McClintock said.

"He indicates that he does not have any recollection of the event ... he expresses his disgust at the event."

Mr McClintock said there was no alcohol in his client's system 10 hours after the attack.

The court was told that, while the attack was aggravated due to the victim's age and vulnerability, el-Chammas's youth was a mitigating factor.

A number of referees vouched for the teenager's good character and honesty, Mr McClintock said.

In imposing a maximum five-year term on el-Chammas, Judge Peter Johnstone said there were a number of mitigating factors.

"There are factors that call for a departure from the standard non-parole period, the fact that this was the first and only offence this offender has committed, his extreme youth, his prospect of rehabilitation and the unlikelihood of his reoffending," Judge Johnstone said.

bunyip
24th-February-2009, 06:58 PM
Give crims the Singapore treatment and then see if they still think they can thumb their noses at the law.
Singapore is one of the safest countries with one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
No lenient treatment over there, no ifs buts or maybes.......you break the law, you get hit, and you get hit hard.
We should copy their model if we're serious about drastically reducing crime in Australia.

Julia
24th-February-2009, 11:01 PM
No mention of what the victim had to say about all this.

SMH
Yet another example that the law has little to do with justice.
What a ***** coward to pick on an 82 year old woman!

Happy
25th-February-2009, 12:50 PM
Give crims the Singapore treatment and then see if they still think they can thumb their noses at the law.
Singapore is one of the safest countries with one of the lowest crime rates in the world.
No lenient treatment over there, no ifs buts or maybes.......you break the law, you get hit, and you get hit hard.
We should copy their model if we're serious about drastically reducing crime in Australia.


I wander if it is possible to apply Singapore punishment model in Australia?

Ageo
25th-February-2009, 12:56 PM
I wander if it is possible to apply Singapore punishment model in Australia?

Why because we have people here that care more about animals than humans?

I think bunyip has hit the nail on the head, if you steal then a nice flogging, next time you steal again a finger goes (if your dumb enough to do it again) a hand goes etc..........

When you have zero tolerance towards punishment people learn quickly.

Calliope
25th-February-2009, 01:14 PM
I wander if it is possible to apply Singapore punishment model in Australia?

Definitely not. Our jails are not big enough. In Singapore discipline starts in the home, so fewer kids grow up to be criminals.

MrBurns
25th-February-2009, 01:21 PM
Definitely not. Our jails are not big enough. In Singapore discipline starts in the home, so fewer kids grow up to be criminals.

I would happily pay more tax to build more jails and keep the streets clean, but it's not just that is it it's the Judiciary and the "system".

Calliope
25th-February-2009, 05:46 PM
Jail would make Einfeld's depression worse, court told
February 25, 2009 -


Marcus Einfeld is not well and will slide deeper into depression if he is handed a full-time jail term for perjury, his psychiatrist has told a Sydney court.

Jonathon Phillips also raised the prospect of the former Federal Court judge becoming a suicide risk, saying at the very least he would "begin to think in a very negative" way about his life.

He was giving evidence in the NSW Supreme Court today at the sentencing hearing of the retired 69-year-old judge.

Einfeld has pleaded guilty to knowingly making a false statement on oath in Sydney's Downing Centre Local Court on August 7, 2006.

He has also admitted making a false statement in Sydney on August 23, 2006, with intent to pervert the course of justice.

The offences relate to claims he was not behind the wheel of his car on January 8, 2006, when a speed camera recorded his silver Lexus travelling 60kmh in a 50kmh zone at Mosman.



When did all this sentence hearing nonsense start. Why can't the judge make up his own mind after hearing the evidence and verdict. We pay them enough to accept the responsibility.:confused:

MrBurns
25th-February-2009, 05:50 PM
Jail would make Einfeld's depression worse, court told
February 25, 2009 -

When did all this sentence hearing nonsense start. Why can't the judge make up his own mind after hearing the evidence and verdict. We pay them enough to accept the responsibility.:confused:

I think they all wear suspender belts and stockings under their robes.

Julia
25th-February-2009, 11:39 PM
Jail would make Einfeld's depression worse, court told
February 25, 2009 -

When did all this sentence hearing nonsense start. Why can't the judge make up his own mind after hearing the evidence and verdict. We pay them enough to accept the responsibility.:confused:
Yes, you'd think it was entirely straightforward, wouldn't you!
I was very surprised that his psychiatrist was dragged into it, but I guess you'll try anything to avoid jail.
Somehow it seems hugely worse that a judge should perjure himself than an 'ordinary citizen'. And over such a stupid, small fine. Perhaps he really was depressed to the point of insanity that he would do such a thing?

johnnyg
25th-February-2009, 11:45 PM
Sorry if its been posted before, but I wonder if we can keep an eye on the news sites and see if these 3 get caught, and if so what sort of punishment they get handed out.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25105398-421,00.html

nulla nulla
26th-February-2009, 07:52 AM
Amazing the lengths a "pillar of society" will go to, to avoid a small fine for being less than 15 Kilometres an hour over the speed limit. Also amazing is that this circus costs will ultimately be borne by the tax payers.
The court, having determined the guilt of this contemptable excuse for a "pillar of society" has a responsibility to hand down a monetary fine adequate to reimburse the public purse for the cost incurred and incarcerate him to give him time to reflect that he is not above the law.

dutchie
26th-February-2009, 08:11 AM
Hi johnnyg

Disgusting act.

Proposed Sentence: 15 years jail then deportation

Cheers

dutchie

MrBurns
26th-February-2009, 08:22 AM
Sorry if its been posted before, but I wonder if we can keep an eye on the news sites and see if these 3 get caught, and if so what sort of punishment they get handed out.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25105398-421,00.html

Looks like Nigerians, unhealthily overrepresented in crime here.

Probably get compo for getting blood on their shoes, but interesting to keep track of them.

They have a good photo of one so they should be able to round them up fairly easily.

MrBurns
26th-February-2009, 08:24 AM
Amazing the lengths a "pillar of society" will go to, to avoid a small fine for being less than 15 Kilometres an hour over the speed limit. Also amazing is that this circus costs will ultimately be borne by the tax payers.
The court, having determined the guilt of this contemptable excuse for a "pillar of society" has a responsibility to hand down a monetary fine adequate to reimburse the public purse for the cost incurred and incarcerate him to give him time to reflect that he is not above the law.

He should have known better, his peers will punish him accordingly as he has brought the office into disrepute.

dutchie
26th-February-2009, 09:28 AM
Hi MrBurns

Actually, the opposite - "professionals" take care of each other.

He will probably get a "light" sentence.

Cheers

dutchie

MrBurns
26th-February-2009, 09:34 AM
Hi MrBurns

Actually, the opposite - "professionals" take care of each other.

He will probably get a "light" sentence.

Cheers

dutchie

Let's wait and see, I reckon he's in for it ......big time:2twocents

Calliope
26th-February-2009, 11:09 AM
Hi johnnyg

Disgusting act.

Proposed Sentence: 15 years jail then deportation

Cheers

dutchie

These thugs obviously model themselves on Black American street culture in dress and behaviour. Did you notice the pimp roll style of walking.

MrBurns
26th-February-2009, 12:26 PM
These thugs obviously model themselves on Black American street culture in dress and behaviour. Did you notice the pimp roll style of walking.

I've noticed some young Lebanese smart arses walk that way, intimidating, until you get the baseball bat out of the car anyway.

johnnyg
26th-February-2009, 12:48 PM
Hi johnnyg

Disgusting act.

Proposed Sentence: 15 years jail then deportation

Cheers

dutchie

Its extremely brutal, however I ponder the 15 year proposed sentence.

From a similar case here ---> http://www.theage.com.au/national/killers-sentenced-over-curry-bashing-20081222-73ff.html

2 years in a youth detention center. Seems fair. :eek7:

Hopefully the brutality shown on the CCTV footage might make the judge/any other judge dealing with a similar style case think twice about the sentence.

2 of my mates in separate incidents have had their head stomped on by a group of 4-6 thugs, and they got off with pissy 3 and 6 month good behavior bonds.

GumbyLearner
26th-February-2009, 12:57 PM
Sorry if its been posted before, but I wonder if we can keep an eye on the news sites and see if these 3 get caught, and if so what sort of punishment they get handed out.

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,27574,25105398-421,00.html

The thing that's even more disturbing about these crooks is they were not ashamed of being filmed doing it and continued the attack even after other pedestrians passed by.

The tall guy dwarfs the other two attackers. He appears almost the height of Manute Bol from the NBA.

I also heard of this scam in news recently.

MP tells of Somali passport fraud
http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news-national/mp-tells-of-somali-passport-fraud-20090223-8frp.html

dutchie
26th-February-2009, 01:02 PM
"From a similar case here ---> http://www.theage.com.au/national/ki...1222-73ff.html"

I don't know why they wasted time and money in having a trial.

"15 years" - that is my sentence if I was a judge.
Surely that must be attempted murder.

GumbyLearner
26th-February-2009, 01:07 PM
Its extremely brutal, however I ponder the 15 year proposed sentence.

From a similar case here ---> http://www.theage.com.au/national/killers-sentenced-over-curry-bashing-20081222-73ff.html

2 years in a youth detention center. Seems fair. :eek7:

Hopefully the brutality shown on the CCTV footage might make the judge/any other judge dealing with a similar style case think twice about the sentence.

2 of my mates in separate incidents have had their head stomped on by a group of 4-6 thugs, and they got off with pissy 3 and 6 month good behavior bonds.

Looks like the crooks are no longer afraid of the cops.
If cameras are the only retrospect for crime, then when does
prevention come into it? :banghead:

I think it's time for the Guardian Angels to come back onto the public transport system. Let the private security deal with the fare evaders and let the guardian angels protect the public. Hey the cops in the USA didn't like them, but they can be very effective in protecting the public.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guardian_Angels

Ageo
26th-February-2009, 01:13 PM
Now the craziest thing about this all is that if the guy was armed and shot those thugs he would probably get more punishment then what they are going to receive (if they get caught).

Sometimes its like the government wants us to break the law to defend ourselves.

GumbyLearner
26th-February-2009, 01:22 PM
Now the craziest thing about this all is that if the guy was armed and shot those thugs he would probably get more punishment then what they are going to receive (if they get caught).

Sometimes its like the government wants us to break the law to defend ourselves.

The problem is also compounded by the privatisation of The Met in Victoria.
NO station masters on most train platforms in the Melbourne Metropolitan area. Most commuters are angry when the trains are cancelled and don't run on time like what happened this summer in Melbourne. Yet Connex still turn a profit from a network built with public money. Surely these kind of attacks on commuters could be minimized if the Government and Connex did something about staffing the train platforms once again. But try to explain that to the bean-counters in Kosky's department and/or Connex. Cheaper to compensate acts of violence then ensuring a safe and reliable Public Transport system. Economic rationalism gone wrong. :mad:

:2twocents

GumbyLearner
26th-February-2009, 01:52 PM
This is an interesting one. I wonder what penalty the journo will receive.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25108063-5012980,00.html

A CURRENT Affair reporter Ben Fordham and his producer expect to be charged over a hidden camera investigation they say headed off a murder.

Fordham posed as an accomplice to an alleged hitman who was approached by a Sydney man to kill another man.

The ACA report said the man wanted to kill the target because he was blackmailing a friend of his.
The story, which relied heavily on the use of hidden cameras and microphones, aired on ACA last year.

On ACA on Wednesday night, Fordham said he and producer Andrew Byrne expected to be charged by NSW Police at their office.

bunyip
26th-February-2009, 07:58 PM
I wander if it is possible to apply Singapore punishment model in Australia?

It's possible alright.
First, change the judiciary system so that judges don't get so much say in what sentence is handed out - we've all seen how incompetent and stupid some of them can be.
Maybe the jury and the victim and perhaps the victims family can be involved in deciding the sentence, afterall, it's the jury that decides the guilt or innocence of the accused.
Increase the penalties drastically....take a leaf out of Singapore's book.
Don't give crims early parole if they behave themselves in jail....give them increased sentences if they don't. And if they're already in there for the term of their life, and they want to play up, stick them in an isolation cell and withdraw all privileges and comforts except those that are essential for life. And not for just a few days or weeks - leave the bastards in there for six or twelve months, then stick them back in there permanently if they play up again. If they go mad, tough luck - they're probably mad anyway, and I can't see why some of these morons deserve any sort of compassion whatsoever.
Increase our police force, and not just a small increase either.
Build more jails if necessary, and make them a hell of a lot more spartan than our current jails. We found more than a billion dollars for the Asian tsunami victims, we find tens or hundreds of millions to give away every time there's a natural disaster overseas or at home. Rudd has found a staggering amount of money to splash around in response to the global economic meltdown.
The money can be found for more jails if necessary. And in the long run we'd probably need less jails, not more, as the crime rate falls.
Apart from that, crime is already costing us billions of dollars anyway - reduce it drastically and in the long run we'd save money.
I get sick of hearing excuses why we can't introduce whatever measures are necessary to get the upper hand on crime.
If we're not competent in this country to draft some effective crime-fighting policies, and implement them, then call in a team of experts from some country with a proven track record in crime control.

bunyip
26th-February-2009, 08:08 PM
This is an interesting one. I wonder what penalty the journo will receive.

http://www.news.com.au/couriermail/story/0,23739,25108063-5012980,00.html

A CURRENT Affair reporter Ben Fordham and his producer expect to be charged over a hidden camera investigation they say headed off a murder.

Fordham posed as an accomplice to an alleged hitman who was approached by a Sydney man to kill another man.

The ACA report said the man wanted to kill the target because he was blackmailing a friend of his.
The story, which relied heavily on the use of hidden cameras and microphones, aired on ACA last year.

On ACA on Wednesday night, Fordham said he and producer Andrew Byrne expected to be charged by NSW Police at their office.

Ben Fordham is quite a well known face on Australian TV these days. Was he wearing a disguise when he posed as a hit mans accomplice, or do these crims watch so little TV that they'd never seen him on the screen?

GumbyLearner
26th-February-2009, 08:12 PM
If we're not competent in this country to draft some effective crime-fighting policies, and implement them, then call in a team of experts from some country with a proven track record in crime control.

I'm hearing you Bunyip.
Just need the message to go to the NSW Crime Commission.

Here's an interesting article

http://www.canberratimes.com.au/news/national/national/general/crime-and-banishment/1440752.aspx

Crime and Banishment

Respect runs deep among the Calabrians who man the stalls at Melbourne's Wholesale Fruit and Vegetable market. Even when police come calling, as in the early 1990s when market identities began turning up dead, deference is paid to those with influence.


In 1992, when homicide detectives asked the fruitshop owner Antonio Madafferi what he thought of Liborio Benvenuto, the undisputed Mafia godfather of Melbourne, he replied: "A very good man. Very honest and he was respected everywhere."


Madafferi also impressed upon the interviewing detectives that he, too, was a man of influence. "I am a man who is very respected at the market."


Bruce Billson, the Liberal MP, also thinks Madafferi is a decent chap, although his interaction with the Calabrian-born greengrocer is limited to fund-raising events. "I met him at functions. He seems a nice guy," Billson says.

MrBurns
26th-February-2009, 10:20 PM
This creep will be released among the public in under 8 years to mix with your relatives, children, everyone -


Sex attacker jailed for eight years

A man who carried out a "callous and brutal" sex attack on a seven-year-old girl and her 11-year-old brother has been sentenced to eight years' jail.

Adam Bradley Field, 19, pleaded guilty in the West Australian District Court to charges arising from the attack on the pair as they walked home from their suburban Perth primary school on November 11 last year.

The court was told the girl had been so traumatised that her medical examination took place under general anaesthetic.

Field had enticed the siblings into bushland, where he assaulted them one by one, making each one watch while the other was being harmed.

He broke down in court as prosecutor Kate Cook read out graphic details of the sex attacks.

Ms Cook said Field had drunk four middies and two pints of beer at the local pub before walking home via his old primary school, where he went into the toilets.

He was discovered by a teacher, who escorted him to his home nearby.

But he returned to the area of bushland near the school, where he approached the children and asked them if they wanted to see a cat with a stick in its ear.

Field initially admitted hurting the children but said he could not recall details of the events, the court was told.

Field's lawyer Philip Urquhart said Field was remorseful and felt he had nothing left to live for.

A victim of sexual abuse from the age of eight, who was abandoned by his father, Field was a poor performer at school and had taken up drinking and drugs in his teenage years.

"Virtually every day last year ... was spent drinking and drug taking," Mr Urquhart said.

Field pleaded guilty to four counts of sexual penetration, two counts of indecent dealing and two counts of unlawful detention, and a separate charge of assaulting a taxi driver.

Judge Christopher Stevenson said Field's cooperation with police was a mitigating factor, along with his sexual abuse as a child.

But it was a serious offence in which Field had carried out a "callous and brutal sexual assault using force and coercion", he said.

Judge Stevenson sentenced him to eight years on the sex and abduction charges, and another year for assaulting the taxi driver.

Field will be eligible for parole but the term was not specified

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/757762/sex-attacker-jailed-for-eight-years

bunyip
27th-February-2009, 12:00 AM
This creep will be released among the public in under 8 years to mix with your relatives, children, everyone -



http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/757762/sex-attacker-jailed-for-eight-years

They'd probably hang this bastard in Singapore, and everyone would agree the world is a better place without him.

MrBurns
27th-February-2009, 08:54 AM
They'd probably hang this bastard in Singapore, and everyone would agree the world is a better place without him.

I cant get over this -


The court was told the girl had been so traumatised that her medical examination took place under general anaesthetic.


I would personally put the rope around his neck and pull the trapdoor.

The system is not good enough to deal with people like this, yes the system has cost us so many millions it would float a few banks in the US but they still cant deal with a creep like this.

They will spend countless dollars housing , treating , watching then let him out, it's not good enough I think we could start a political party on this issue alone. anyone in ?

Calliope
27th-February-2009, 02:41 PM
Every time there is a state election we are given promises on improving "Law and Order". Both sides equate the level of law and order to police numbers, although they obviously know better.

They know as well as we do that the biggest impediment to L&O is the Judiciary. This problem has arisen through a succession of Labor governments stacking the benches with bleeding heart magistrates and judges.

MrBurns
27th-February-2009, 02:50 PM
They know as well as we do that the biggest impediment to L&O is the Judiciary. This problem has arisen through a succession of Labor governments stacking the benches with bleeding heart magistrates and judges.

Knew it was the judiciary but you've enlightened us with the reason why, I think you nailed it.

GumbyLearner
27th-February-2009, 04:26 PM
Knew it was the judiciary but you've enlightened us with the reason why, I think you nailed it.

Yeah you guys are great at nailing Labor for everything.

Have you got anything to say about Mandy "The Gland" Vanstone?

I bet she her orders her "special" made clothes straight to the embassy in Italy from her crooked fat buddies!

Calliope
27th-February-2009, 07:51 PM
Yeah you guys are great at nailing Labor for everything.

Well, not everything. But as all the State governments except one are Labor, and the judiciary are reluctant to jail anybody, I think it is safe to assume that they were appointed for this very reason.

The judges and magistrates are well aware that, if they hand down custodial sentences to all offenders who deserve jail, there is no accommodation for them. Like our hospitals the jails are overcrowded and can take only the most serious cases

MrBurns
28th-February-2009, 07:37 AM
Yeah you guys are great at nailing Labor for everything.

Well labor are responsible for all things bad because they are tossers and they now have a leader who could toss for his country he's so good at it.

Libs = jobs and prosperity.

Labor= recession, unemployment and financial upheaval,

You can argue with me but you cant argue with the facts.;)

bunyip
28th-February-2009, 11:24 AM
Yeah you guys are great at nailing Labor for everything.




Nailing Labor is great sport!

If you'll looking for someone to nail, who better than a motley collection of damned unionists, a union lawyer, and a shaven-headed rock star greenie, led by a powderpuff who I'm embarrassed to call a fellow Queenslander, all masquerading as politicians and economic managers, recklessly chucking money around like drunken sailors.

Australians will rue the day they voted this mob in....not that I voted for them myself.

MrBurns
28th-February-2009, 11:32 AM
Nailing Labor is great sport!

If you'll looking for someone to nail, who better than a motley collection of damned unionists, a union lawyer, and a shaven-headed rock star greenie, led by a powderpuff who I'm embarrassed to call a fellow Queenslander, all masquerading as politicians and economic managers, recklessly chucking money around like drunken sailors.

Australians will rue the day they voted this mob in....not that I voted for them myself.

ROFL:D

GumbyLearner
28th-February-2009, 02:54 PM
Nailing Labor is great sport!

If you'll looking for someone to nail, who better than a motley collection of damned unionists, a union lawyer, and a shaven-headed rock star greenie, led by a powderpuff who I'm embarrassed to call a fellow Queenslander, all masquerading as politicians and economic managers, recklessly chucking money around like drunken sailors.

Australians will rue the day they voted this mob in....not that I voted for them myself.

Thats a fair call Bunyip. But Im looking for Australian Federal Police to nail the mob for the largest ecstacy bust in the world. And what better way than to nail the Liberal Party of Australia for the political campaign donations they happily collected from the godfather of the biggest drug mob than Madaferri himself.

Glandstone overuled her own department twice to give the guy a 'visa' because of his poor 'mental condition'. While at the same time putting primary school children in prisons in the desert for simply being the children of refugees. Remember when JH claimed parents threw their children overboard?
Gee how can we build bigger prisons to put the little refugee kids in, by banning the Liberals for accepting cash from Mafia-Overlords and making them pay taxes.


I'm ashamed to call myself Australian, when a drug cartel can get raided and discovered with 100 millions of dollars worth of drugs, pay favour money to the Liberal Party and pay no taxes on the crap they are shoving down kids throats.

And you can include those other Liberals who all put in special words for their gangster buddy not just Glandstone. Dillson and Pain etc...

Anyway, that's history and now Glandstone has moved onto Europe.

CUT THE CRAP!

MrBurns
28th-February-2009, 03:54 PM
Ever hear of a sentence like this here ? No it would have been 15 years with early parole.


LA gang member jailed for actor's death

A Los Angeles gang member has been sentenced to life in prison without chance of parole for killing Judging Amy teen actress Tara Correa-McMullen and another victim.

Damien Watts, 23, was sentenced to consecutive life terms on Friday.

Correa-McMullen appeared in the movie Rebound and had a recurring role on the US television series Judging Amy.

GumbyLearner
28th-February-2009, 03:59 PM
Ever hear of a sentence like this here ? No it would have been 15 years with early parole.

No but most people even "tossers" know about these ones.

"While at the same time putting primary school children in prisons in the desert for simply being the children of refugees."

Sentencing in Australia IS a disgrace.

MrBurns
28th-February-2009, 04:10 PM
No but most people even "tossers" know about these ones.

"While at the same time putting primary school children in prisons in the desert for simply being the children of refugees."

Sentencing in Australia IS a disgrace.

Where would YOU put the children of illegal immigrants ?

They have no family here , send them home ?

GumbyLearner
28th-February-2009, 04:15 PM
Where would YOU put the children of illegal immigrants ?

They have no family here , send them home ?

Not in prison that's for sure.

bunyip
28th-February-2009, 04:48 PM
Not in prison that's for sure.

So Gumby...in answer to Burnsy's question, where would you put the children of illegal immigrants?

And as for 'prisons in the desert', well, you're entitled to your opinion on that, but if you visited those immigration camps in the desert, and then visited a real prison, I feel pretty sure you'd find some very significant differences. Perhaps some similarities too, but certainly some very real differences.

Anyway, where would you put those kids while their parents are being processed through the system?

GumbyLearner
28th-February-2009, 05:03 PM
So Gumby...in answer to Burnsy's question, where would you put the children of illegal immigrants?

And as for 'prisons in the desert', well, you're entitled to your opinion on that, but if you visited those immigration camps in the desert, and then visited a real prison, I feel pretty sure you'd find some very significant differences. Perhaps some similarities too, but certainly some very real differences.

Anyway, where would you put those kids while their parents are being processed through the system?

In a house in a residential area closeby to a well-funded public school and local facilities. Thats where most human beings live. :D

MrBurns
28th-February-2009, 05:18 PM
In a house in a residential area closeby to a well-funded public school and local facilities. Thats where most human beings live. :D

So you would separate them from their parents ? Compo compo !!!!!

Gee if you can find conditions like that let me know and I'll move there.

Havent seen a well funded public school since the 70's but there plenty of money to throw kero on an already over inflated housing bubble, yeah roll out the millions for that little vote grabber. I look into Rudds eyes and see nothing, scary Hitler...ish.

bunyip
28th-February-2009, 05:23 PM
In a house in a residential area closeby to a well-funded public school and local facilities. Thats where most human beings live. :D

You don't think they'd shoot through, or get smuggled out by relatives or family friends or sympathisers?

And is it really our responsibility to provide schooling and housing for kids who are here illegally?
Seems to me we're hard pressed to adequately provide these facilities and services for our own citizens. I can't see that we're under any obligation to provide them to illegal immigrants, even if they're kids.

bunyip
1st-March-2009, 10:53 AM
Jail is not the place for people who are mentally ill.

Once upon a time we had functional psychiatric institutions with secure wings where people whose violent behaviour made them unsafe to be at large were kept. Better for them and better for the community.

The whole experiment of 'treating mentally ill people within the community' has been a dismal failure.



It certainly has, Julia.
Yet the authorities refuse to face up to that fact, continue to close down the psychiatric institutions and attempt to rehabilitate the inmates and put them back in the community.

The story of the Yorkshire Ripper is typical of the thinking here in Australia. Some moron who is big on professional qualifications but small on common sense, decides that some horrifically violent offender like Peter Sutcliffe, (the Ripper) can function normally while he's on medication.
And so a recommendation is made that he be released back into society.
Such a stupid decision doesn't take into account that many of these people just don't continue taking their medication unless they're incarcerated and are under constant supervision.

I have a relative who once worked as a mental health nurse in the Acute Psychiatric Unit of a large regional hospital. She can tell countless stories of patients who were readmitted to hospital time after time because they stopped taking their medication as soon as they were released, or in some cases got on booze and illicit drugs while taking their medication, went completely off their heads, and committed further crimes.

It almost beggars belief that those who are responsible for deciding what to do with people, continue with policies and strategies that are just not working.

bunyip
2nd-March-2009, 01:36 PM
Story on the midday news just now that some US states are looking at abolishing the death penalty in favour of life imprisonment.
Apparently it's related to finances, more specifically, how the global economic crisis is stretching the budgets of US states to the extent that they can no longer afford the death penalty.
The claim is that execution costs more than life imprisonment. Very difficult to believe.

Pity we don't re-introduce the death penalty here in Australia. I can't see how it wouldn't be a lot cheaper than keeping those animals in jail for many decades.

MrBurns
2nd-March-2009, 01:38 PM
Story on the midday news just now that some US states are looking at abolishing the death penalty in favour of life imprisonment.
Apparently it's related to finances, more specifically, how the global economic crisis is stretching the budgets of US states to the extent that they can no longer afford the death penalty.
The claim is that execution costs more than life imprisonment. Very difficult to believe.

Pity we don't re-introduce the death penalty here in Australia. I can't see how it wouldn't be a lot cheaper than keeping those animals in jail for many decades.

That cant be right doesnt cost a lot to kill someome but it does to feed them for 20 years.

Life in prison should mean life not the limp wristed perversions of justice handed out here.

MrBurns
3rd-March-2009, 10:51 AM
Speechless..............


Anger after child rapist walks free
Posted 28 minutes ago
Updated 21 minutes ago

Map: South Grafton 2460
The New South Wales Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) may heed pressure from both sides of politics to appeal against a decision to let a man who raped a four-year-old girl walk free.

The 24-year old man pleaded guilty last month to breaking into a house near South Grafton, on the state's north coast, and sexually assaulting a girl as she slept in 2007.

He was given a two-year suspended sentence in Sydney's Downing Centre District Court, after spending at least 14 months in remand awaiting his trial.

NSW Attorney-General John Hatzistergos says he is seeking urgent advice from the DPP on the prospects of an appeal.

Shadow attorney-general Greg Smith SC says the "manifestly inadequate sentence" needs to be overturned.

"I just can't understand what possesses someone to give such a light sentence," he said.

A spokeswoman for the DPP says the department is waiting for remarks from the sentencing judge and will consider an appeal within the next few weeks.

pilots
3rd-March-2009, 11:05 AM
Watch and see if he blames it on drugs or booze.

Happy
4th-March-2009, 08:31 AM
In another article State Attorney-General John Hatzistergos said that maximum penalty is 25 years.

And I can almost understand why some might again appeal severity of their sentences for rape.



From ABC, 3 Mar. 09
CHILD RAPIST WALKS FREE, DPP APPEALS

The New South Wales Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) will appeal against the two-year suspended sentence given to a man who raped a four-year-old girl in the state's north.
The 24-year-old man pleaded guilty in a Sydney court last month to breaking into a house north of Grafton and sexually assaulting the girl as she slept in 2007.
He was allowed to walk free from court last month, after spending at least 14 months in remand awaiting his trial.
State Attorney-General John Hatzistergos says the DPP will argue that the sentence is manifestly inadequate.
"The maximum penalty that is available for sexually assaulting a child under the age of 10 is 25 years. The standard minimum sentence is 15 years," he said.
"It's important that those signposts are kept in mind because that reflects the strong abhorrence that the community has to crimes of this nature."
Shadow attorney-general Greg Smith SC also spoke out against the sentence this morning.
"I just can't understand what possesses someone to give such a light sentence," he said.
Earlier today, a spokeswoman for the DPP said the department was waiting for remarks from the sentencing judge and would consider an appeal within the next few weeks.

bunyip
4th-March-2009, 10:03 AM
It seems that some judges are just not up to the responsibility of making intelligent decisions regarding what sentences are appropriate.
What's the solution then - take the decisions out of the judges hands?
Let the jury decide the sentence?
Let the victim or the family of the victim decide the sentence?

Occasionally a victim or their family are the forgiving kind who say - "The culprit has already suffered enough, everyone makes mistakes, we forgive them, let them walk free."
So I guess that rules out letting victims or their families decide on appropriate penalties.
Given that juries are considered qualified to judge someone guilty or innocent, then perhaps they're also qualified to decide what sentence is imposed. Surely they can't do any worse than the judges.
It certainly appears that we have to stop relying on judges if we want to get decent justice for victims, while at the same time providing some very frightening deterrents for those who think they can break the law.

MrBurns
4th-March-2009, 10:08 AM
Judges are dictated to by the Law, they act on precedent, previous sentences.
What needs to happen is the LAW needs to be changed so judges are compelled to dole out more appropriate sentences.

In some cases they have that option but dont exercise it because they HAVE to take into account mitigating circumstances such as remorse, this is bull**** and should be abolished.

Double the size of the jails and throw every smart **** crim and thug and just leave them there so people can walk the streets at night again.

Julia
4th-March-2009, 11:30 AM
In addition to addressing inappropriate sentencing, and considering changes to the law, don't we have to also look at why violence is increasing exponentially?

The obvious answer is the very question we're discussing, i.e. insufficient deterrent, but this violence is extending to little kids in prep (about 4 and 5 year olds) who are attacking their classmates. They're hardly likely to be figuring out that they can do it with impunity because there's no legal redress against such behaviour.

So why is this happening? Have parents failed to set boundaries about behaviour? Do kids as young as this get the violence concept from TV?

Are these kids manipulating their parents? A psychologist I know has cut three hours off her working day so she can collect her 5 year old from prep. She was advised that he could not remain with the after 2pm limited staffing because his aggression towards the other kids is so great that he needs to have a staff member with him every moment .
The psychologist mother says at home there are no problems with his behaviour at all. A bit ironic when the child of a psychologist and a mental health unit director is indulging in uncontrollable behaviour.

MrBurns
4th-March-2009, 11:39 AM
In addition to addressing inappropriate sentencing, and considering changes to the law, don't we have to also look at why violence is increasing exponentially?

So why is this happening? Have parents failed to set boundaries about behaviour? Do kids as young as this get the violence concept from TV?

.

We follow the USA, everyone wants to be a black rap crim these days.

Some take extensive martial arts courses thats why these so many deaths from fights now.

Too much grog and not enough law -

Pubs arent allowed to serve drunks but they do it all day every day, the police do nothing.

Sir Osisofliver
4th-March-2009, 11:59 AM
I agree with the sentiment that we should be looking at root causes behind these violent crimes, but lets not bury our head in the sand here. There is an issue now, and the sort of social engineering required to maybe fix the problems enough to reduce these types of crimes does not happen swiftly.

So what do we do with the current crop of people who haven't figured out that if you can't play nice with others, you don't get to belong on the team? Tougher sentencing is perhaps the only thing that can be done.

Quite frankly crimes against children sicken me and I'd like to see some of the US sentencing laws as they apply to crimes against children in force here. Eg In certain states in the U.S. I underdstand if you commit a sexual act against a child under the age of 10 it is MANDATORY life imprisonment. No bleeding heart Judge can lower that sentence because it is a mandatory minimum sentence enshrined in the law.

Mental health here in Australia is also a complete joke. One of my wife's family recently changed her depression medication which triggered a psychotic break. She didn't sleep for almost ten days, was violent towards family members (we had to move the kids out for week) and she generally went round the bend. Given that she was in no condition to admit herself - her husband was required to call the police to forcibily remove her (in handcuffs I might add) to hospital - where they booted her out of the system in less than two weeks (far too quickly) and are treating her as an outpatient.

Where the hell are the mental health hospitals anymore?

Anyway - enough griping from me.

Sir O

nulla nulla
5th-March-2009, 09:44 PM
It certainly has, Julia.
Yet the authorities refuse to face up to that fact, continue to close down the psychiatric institutions and attempt to rehabilitate the inmates and put them back in the community.

The story of the Yorkshire Ripper is typical of the thinking here in Australia. Some moron who is big on professional qualifications but small on common sense, decides that some horrifically violent offender like Peter Sutcliffe, (the Ripper) can function normally while he's on medication.
And so a recommendation is made that he be released back into society.
Such a stupid decision doesn't take into account that many of these people just don't continue taking their medication unless they're incarcerated and are under constant supervision.

I have a relative who once worked as a mental health nurse in the Acute Psychiatric Unit of a large regional hospital. She can tell countless stories of patients who were readmitted to hospital time after time because they stopped taking their medication as soon as they were released, or in some cases got on booze and illicit drugs while taking their medication, went completely off their heads, and committed further crimes.

It almost beggars belief that those who are responsible for deciding what to do with people, continue with policies and strategies that are just not working.

A current example of the "sick" persons inability to self medicate after reinstatement in the community is the woman released from the immigration cente and compensated for her wrongful internment. Can't immediately recall her name but her most recent escapade, after being evicted from Germany and banned from Turkey, was to be arrested in Jordan.

Julia
5th-March-2009, 11:23 PM
Cordelia Rau.

Happy
6th-March-2009, 12:53 PM
It did not happen in Australia, but if it did result would be identical.

We all are just sitting ducks in mercy of some crim, mental or youth.




From ABC 6 Mar. 09
NO JAIL FOR CANADIAN BUS BEHEADER

A mentally ill man who beheaded and then cannibalised a fellow passenger on a Greyhound bus last year cannot be held responsible for his actions, and will be housed indefinitely in a secure mental institution, a Canadian court has ruled.
Justice John Scurfield agreed with lawyers who said Vincent Weiguang Li, 40, was suffering from a major mental illness when he attacked a sleeping passenger on the bus in July last year, stabbing him dozens of times in the back and chest.

Li later held up the severed head of the victim, Tim McLean, and as police watched from outside the bus, he continued to mutilate the body and eat some of the remains.
Mr McLean was on his way home to Winnipeg from a job as a carnival worker in Edmonton, western Canada.

Dr Stanley Yaren, the only witness for the prosecution, told the court that Li said he heard voices from God in his head telling him to kill McLean. He described Li as a "decent person" suffering from untreated schizophrenia, with a strong chance of recovery.
"He thought that Mr McLean was an evil entity, that if he didn't kill Mr McLean, Mr McLean would kill him," said Li's lawyer, Alan Libman.

"If Mr Li, because of a mental illness, believed that he was defending himself, he didn't know what he was doing was wrong.
"And if someone doesn't know what they're doing is wrong, we don't punish them."
Debra Parkes, a law professor at University of Manitoba, noted that Li will stay indefinitely in a secure psychiatric hospital, subject to reviews, and this might give him a longer period in custody than a murderer sentenced to jail time.
The court also heard of a 2005 incident in which police picked Li up walking down an Ontario highway and Li said he was "following the sun."
He was briefly hospitalised and given medication for schizophrenia, but he denied he had a problem and left the hospital.
-Reuters

Happy
6th-March-2009, 01:30 PM
From ABC 6 Mar. 09

SCHIZOPHRENIA SUFFERER NOT GUILTY OF STABBING MURDER
By Rebecca Barrett

A New Zealand man has been found not guilty by reason of mental illness over the stabbing murder of a 60-year-old man in north-west Sydney last year.
Sixty-year-old Josef Maskiewicz was found stabbed to death inside his Castle Hill home in February last year.
Clinton Dion Moko Moko was charged with Mr Maskiewicz's murder and extradited from New Zealand last March.
At the start of his Supreme Court trial, 35-year-old Moko Moko pleaded not guilty by reason of mental illness.
The prosecution has told the court the Crown case relied on admissions of guilt made by Moko Moko to his wife and psychiatrist.
But Justice Bruce James found Moko Moko did not know what he was doing because his reasoning was defective due to a disease of the mind.
Moko Moko is being treated for paranoid schizophrenia and will stay in jail until the Mental Health Review Tribunal decides on his future.


Weíve got one too, no beheading only murder, but same result.

Attacked person not alive, perpetrator free to kill once Mental Health Review Tribunal decides to let Moko Moko go.

GumbyLearner
6th-March-2009, 03:31 PM
Finding justice

http://www.theage.com.au/national/finding-justice-20090305-8q3i.html

"In the case of a young offender, there can hardly ever be any conflict between the public interest and that of the offender. The public have no greater interest than that he should become a good citizen. The difficult task of the court is to determine what treatment gives the best chance of realising that objective."English judgement from Principles of Sentencing by D. A. Thomas.

THIS morning in the Melbourne County Court, four young men will be sentenced to prison for committing callous crimes against a harmless man. A fifth co-offender, one of two teenagers, will almost certainly suffer the same punishment soon for his involvement in the now-notorious arson attack on Richard Plotkin.

Many familiar with the case are likely to complain that the sentences, whatever their length, won't be long enough.

A soft target, Plotkin, 60, was left near death and horribly scarred in the attack that destroyed his home and independence. It is this loss of the life he once enjoyed and the ability to function autonomously in his community at Rosebud that he misses most.

Happy
6th-March-2009, 04:18 PM
FOUR JAILED FOR SETTING MAN ALIGHT
From ABC 6 Mar. 09
By Liz Hobday

In Victoria, four Mornington Peninsula men who set an elderly man on fire have each been sentenced to five years in jail.

Tyson Jessen, 19, Richard Findlay, Allan Walters, and Adam Taylor, all in their 20s, threw petrol on mentally-ill man Irving Plotkin, and set him on fire.
Mr Plotkin was critically injured and his Rosebud house, south-east of Melbourne, was destroyed.
They pleaded guilty to arson and conduct endangering life.
Judge Barbara Cotterell said their crimes were horrifying and the attack left Mr Plotkin scarred and disfigured.

The court heard Mr Plotkin's eyelids and lips had to be removed, and it was highly likely his ears would need to be amputated.
Judge Barbara Cotterell said their conduct was disgraceful and horrifying.
Jessen, Walters and Taylor broke down as they were sentenced but Findlay showed no emotion.
The court heard they had been threatened in jail and were under protection.
They will serve a non-parole period of three years.
Co-defendant James Dingle is yet to be sentenced.



Cheap as fried chips, 5 years = 3, according to wisdom of Judge Barbara Cotterell

Happy
6th-March-2009, 04:40 PM
VETERAN BASHED FOR 50 CENTS, ATTACKER JAILED
From ABC 6 Mar. 09

A Sydney man has been sentenced to at least 15 months in jail for bashing an 83-year-old war veteran over 50 cents.
Sutherland Local Court heard 30-year-old Kristopher Cowie approached Ernest Evans at Carringbah, in southern Sydney, last October and asked for the money.
The court was told Mr Evans was punched at least three times in the face when he refused to hand over 50 cents.

Cowie was found guilty of assault occasioning actual bodily harm last October.
He was sentenced to a maximum of two years' jail today.
The 30-year-old will spend a minimum 15 months behind bars and be eligible for parole in April 2011



3 punches + 50 cents = 2 years = err actually 1 year and 3 months

Since jails have fitness equipment, in 15 months time Kristopher might be able to punch much harder.

bunyip
6th-March-2009, 08:39 PM
One of the lowest people ever to pollute Queensland with his presence, paedophile Dennis Ferguson, was today acquitted of molesting a 5 year old girl within a few weeks of his release from prison after serving a lengthy sentence for an earlier offence. Ferguson became Queensland's most loathed person when he was found guilty of abducting three siblings and holding them in a motel room for four days while he repeatedly raped them. From memory the kids were aged between three and seven years at the time.
The latest charge against him was dismissed because of inconclusive evidence.
It disgusts me that this grubby little apology for a human being was ever released from prison.....all because some idiotic person/s with more professional qualifications than common sense, thought he deserved a second chance.
Only a justice system that's downright pathetic releases a man who imprisons and rapes three little children for four days.
When Ferguson was put behind bars they should have left him there for the rest of his miserable life. Better still, cut off his head or hang him.
Now we sit back and wait for the next poor innocent little kid to fall victim to Dennis the menace.

Julia
6th-March-2009, 11:20 PM
Bunyip, I doubt there would be a Queenslander who didn't agree with your comments. Ferguson must be one of the most loathsome cretins to ever exist.
I completely agree that he should have never been released.

Still, re the acquittal today, I understand there was a possibility that the person he was with at the time (also a known paedophile) could have been mistaken by the child witness for Ferguson. Therefore the public prosecutor's assertion that it was Ferguson who committed the offence could not be proven without doubt.

So we have the magical formula: the execution of the Law which has little to do with justice.

I had the fleeting thought that perhaps the case could be brought against Ferguson's companion, but presumably the same defence would apply, that the child could not say for certain which of the two men assaulted her.

How is that child and her family feeling now, I wonder? Going through all that only to know this apology for a human being is out there ready to do it all again.

bunyip
7th-March-2009, 10:51 AM
Bunyip, I doubt there would be a Queenslander who didn't agree with your comments. Ferguson must be one of the most loathsome cretins to ever exist.
I completely agree that he should have never been released.

Still, re the acquittal today, I understand there was a possibility that the person he was with at the time (also a known paedophile) could have been mistaken by the child witness for Ferguson. Therefore the public prosecutor's assertion that it was Ferguson who committed the offence could not be proven without doubt.

So we have the magical formula: the execution of the Law which has little to do with justice.

I had the fleeting thought that perhaps the case could be brought against Ferguson's companion, but presumably the same defence would apply, that the child could not say for certain which of the two men assaulted her.

How is that child and her family feeling now, I wonder? Going through all that only to know this apology for a human being is out there ready to do it all again.
Yes Julia, I can see how the charge against him couldn't be proven without doubt.
So here we have a situation where two notorious paedophiles have a little five year old girl, she gets sexually assaulted, but nobody can prove which one of them assaulted her.
Ferguson and his scumbag lawyer claim it was the other bloke, and the other bloke probably claims it was Ferguson.
It was probably both of them. So they're both released back into the public.
Neither of them should have been in a position to grab the girl in the first place. As convicted paedophiles they should have both been in jail for the term of their natural lives. Or lying in a grave somewhere with a dozen bullets in their bodies.

MrBurns
7th-March-2009, 10:57 AM
One of the lowest people ever to pollute Queensland with his presence, paedophile Dennis Ferguson, was today acquitted of molesting a 5 year old girl within a few weeks of his release from prison after serving a lengthy sentence for an earlier offence. Ferguson became Queensland's most loathed person when he was found guilty of abducting three siblings and holding them in a motel room for four days while he repeatedly raped them. From memory the kids were aged between three and seven years at the time.
The latest charge against him was dismissed because of inconclusive evidence.
It disgusts me that this grubby little apology for a human being was ever released from prison.....all because some idiotic person/s with more professional qualifications than common sense, thought he deserved a second chance.
Only a justice system that's downright pathetic releases a man who imprisons and rapes three little children for four days.
When Ferguson was put behind bars they should have left him there for the rest of his miserable life. Better still, cut off his head or hang him.
Now we sit back and wait for the next poor innocent little kid to fall victim to Dennis the menace.

It surprises me that no one has knocked him off, I'd be tempted if I ever saw him. The courts are an accessory to any crime he commits.

nulla nulla
9th-March-2009, 09:55 PM
It surprises me that no one has knocked him off, I'd be tempted if I ever saw him. The courts are an accessory to any crime he commits.

perhaps a pat on the chest with a shovel?

Sir Osisofliver
10th-March-2009, 09:59 AM
perhaps a pat on the chest with a shovel?

Yeah...this shovel

2BAD4U
12th-March-2009, 11:03 PM
People from Perth would be familiar with the case of Constable Matt Butcher who was head-butted from behind and been left partially paralysed. These gutless wonders have just been found not guilty. About time our cops got justice and protection from this sort of crap. They are there to protect us but no one is protecting them. Disgusting. :mad::banghead::mad::banghead:

Story Here (http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25177866-948,00.html)

MrBurns
13th-March-2009, 08:10 AM
People from Perth would be familiar with the case of Constable Matt Butcher who was head-butted from behind and been left partially paralysed. These gutless wonders have just been found not guilty. About time our cops got justice and protection from this sort of crap. They are there to protect us but no one is protecting them. Disgusting. :mad::banghead::mad::banghead:

Story Here (http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,21598,25177866-948,00.html)

I saw that story this morning what a digraceful situation, I believe he was found not guilty by a jury ?

I saw the footage on TV no way was that self defence.

I think the time for legal reform is long overdue.

metric
13th-March-2009, 08:20 AM
ive no great love for coppers or authority....but this case is a disgrace. why would a policeman put his or her life on the line, without at the least, legal backup?

they should go on strike.

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,27574,25177866-2761,00.html


.

MrBurns
13th-March-2009, 08:24 AM
ive no great love for coppers or authority....but this case is a disgrace. why would a policeman put his or her life on the line, without at the least, legal backup?

they should go on strike.

http://www.news.com.au/perthnow/story/0,27574,25177866-2761,00.html


.

I hope they do, frankly I would quit, what's the point of going out on jobs when you're not covered.

Happy
13th-March-2009, 02:20 PM
From ABC, 13 Mar. 09

SA GOVT WINS INDEFINITE DETENTION OF RAPIST

A Supreme Court judge has ordered that a convicted rapist in South Australia be detained indefinitely.
SA Attorney-General Michael Atkinson had applied to have Dean Ronald Modra, 49, detained beyond his scheduled release from prison next month.

Modra is serving a 20-year sentence for break-ins and rapes in the late 1980s.
Lawyers for the Attorney-General argued Modra was unable or unwilling to control his sexual urges.
Justice Margaret Nyland ruled that Modra be detained after his prison sentence ends, until a further order is made.

Mr Atkinson says it is the first time he has used laws passed in 2005, although the Director of Public Prosecutions has made frequent use of them.

"This result should provide some comfort to the public," he said.
"We will step in where the safety of the public is at risk."


Just what community wanted for quite a while.

Almost not on subject, thought for a while if I should open another thread.

MrBurns
13th-March-2009, 02:24 PM
Just what community wanted for quite a while.

Almost not on subject, thought for a while if I should open another thread.

No, right on topic, we need more of these decisions.

michelletonkin
15th-April-2009, 10:42 AM
Like others, I really would like to do more than just get outraged about this dreadful problem. Can anyone tell me if there's an actual lobby group or volunteer group that is taking action in some way to lobby the government/judicial organisations into changing the laws about sentencing, particularly with crimes against children? I've searched google and yahoo but can't seem to find anything. I'd be really grateful if someone with any information could reply to me at michellet2001@hotmail.com. I want to DO something!

Thanks very much
Michelle

MrBurns
15th-April-2009, 11:47 AM
Like others, I really would like to do more than just get outraged about this dreadful problem. Can anyone tell me if there's an actual lobby group or volunteer group that is taking action in some way to lobby the government/judicial organisations into changing the laws about sentencing, particularly with crimes against children? I've searched google and yahoo but can't seem to find anything. I'd be really grateful if someone with any information could reply to me at deleted I want to DO something!

Thanks very much
Michelle

Shouldnt put your email address in here ..........you never know:eek:

Yeah I'd like to do something too, I dont know why the media arent onto this big time that would push it along better than anything.

Happy
15th-April-2009, 01:59 PM
Like others, I really would like to do more than just get outraged about this dreadful problem.
..
Thanks very much
Michelle

Welcome to this Forum.

Probably you could search Internet:
When I typed in crime prevention Australia one of the results was this:
http://www.crimeprevention.gov.au/
Victim support group Australia gave few too, this one is for South Australia
http://www.angelfire.com/tv/hvsg/

You could contact one or both of them to search for the one that you are interested in.

Let us know the results.

Happy
25th-May-2009, 05:18 PM
From Nine MSN 25 May 2009
AUSSIES WORRY ABOUT 'NON-EXISTENT' CRIME

A majority of Australians continue to believe crime is soaring when it isn't, and that courts treat offenders far too leniently when they don't.
The latest national survey of attitudes to crime and justice found 71 per cent favoured harsher sentences for law-breakers, a figure which has remained relatively stable for two decades.
A majority also believe that to fight terrorism, the government should be allowed to detain suspects indefinitely, tap phone conversations and stop and search people in the street at random but not torture.
Support for the death penalty continues to fall. It is now 40 per cent, well down from more than 60 per cent two decades ago.
Australian Institute of Criminology research manager Judy Putt says crime researchers around the world are aware of the contradiction between the public view and the reality of the extent of crime and what happens to offenders.
Dr Putt said the survey showed a large majority would like more spent on law enforcement.
The survey showed a significant majority believed crime had increased during the past two years with 41.7 per cent saying there was a lot more crime and 23.2 per cent saying a little more.
Just under three per cent said there was less crime. Actual crime statistics show a decrease in four major categories - murder, break-ins, car theft and theft - during the same time, the study said.
Australians also over-estimated the rate of violent crime. Almost a quarter said violence accounts for up to 80 per cent of all crime, yet the true figure is 10 per cent.
Respondents also under-estimated the rate of conviction for those charged with violent crime. The real conviction figure is between 91-100 per cent, correctly nominated by just 1.8 per cent.
Similarly, almost 70 per cent estimated that under 30 per cent of home burglars go to jail. The real figure was 31-40 per cent.
The results revealed a public sceptical about the criminal justice system, the commission said.
They perceived criminal victimisation to be a much greater risk than it really was, and the criminal justice system as being softer than it really was.
"These misperceptions are generally attributable to the main source of information respondents rely on for their picture of crime and criminal justice - the popular media," the study said.



If you massage figures anything is possible.

Couldnít prevention then detection and conviction rate be better?

If everything is so good, why we ahve crime at all?

Garpal Gumnut
25th-May-2009, 08:29 PM
Have any of you guys ever been inside a prison?

They are not very nice places and guaranteed to breed more criminality in inmates on release. People are bullied, assaulted and use drugs on a daily basis. Whether it is for 6 months or 6 years or 60 years it must be terrifying for first time offenders.

Just look at the US. It has more crime and more prisoners than most western democracies.

There are more fundamental questions to be addressed about Australian society, such as alcohol, drugs, the development of a class society and the absence of any leadership from government in developing a better society.

I feel that giving longer sentences for minor offences is a knee jerk reaction.

For more serious crimes there should be set limits so that the community know that a person can be locked away for the protection of the public for a sufficient time.

gg

Julia
25th-May-2009, 11:03 PM
Recently there was an interview on Radio National with the Governor of I think Arizona who takes a very hard line on crime. He has emptied the jails of prisoners and housed them out in the middle of the desert in tents. (He didn't describe how he maintains security.)

Then he puts them to work, both male and female in chain gangs, doing hard labour, even if he has to get them to dig holes and fill them in again.

They get a 'brunch' of something like a sandwich, plus a hot meal at night.Nothing more.

Then he has taken all the abused animals and housed them in the air conditioned jail. He reckons he has achieved a certain level of justice.

Maybe he has something.

And yes, gg, prisons are mostly not particularly nice places. Neither should they be. Some of our homeless people wouldn't mind such simple accommodation, given that it's weather proof and comes with three meals a day, ablutions readily available, plus your laundry done.

Happy
26th-May-2009, 11:17 AM
...

For more serious crimes there should be set limits so that the community know that a person can be locked away for the protection of the public for a sufficient time.

gg



Repeat offenders should be locked forever in order to protect community for a sufficient time.

As it is now you get attitude: If I am caught I'll get max whatever.

We all know that not every crime is solved and offender caught and punished, so if somebody gets caught after 10th or 20th offence and he gets just one sentence for any one crime committed, no wander they are blaze about it.

IT IS A JOKE on us.

MrBurns
5th-June-2009, 12:08 PM
WTF ?????? the prosecutor asks for only 5 years with parole after 18 months??????????


Watson pleads guilty to honeymoon killing
Posted 1 hour 27 minutes ago
Updated 58 minutes ago


'I'm guilty': Gabe Watson with his wife Christina (ABC TV News)

Map: Brisbane 4000
American David Gabriel 'Gabe' Watson has pleaded guilty in a Brisbane court to the manslaughter of his wife Christina Watson while they were on a diving trip off north Queensland in 2003.

Ms Watson, 26, was on her honeymoon with her 32-year-old husband when she drowned during the diving trip at the Yongala wreck off Townsville.

Watson was charged following an inquest into the death of his wife.

He returned voluntarily from the United States earlier this month to face the charge.

Watson made the guilty plea to manslaughter at about 10:15am AEST in the Supreme Court in Brisbane.

When Watson was formally arraigned on the charge this morning, he told the court he would plead not guilty to murder but guilty to manslaughter.

Prosecutor Brendan Campbell accepted the plea.

Watson is being sentenced immediately, with Justice Peter Lyons now hearing sentencing submissions.

Mr Campbell has asked for a five-year jail term for Watson, with the possibility of parole after 18 months.

More to come.

happytown
5th-June-2009, 12:21 PM
that must be why they call it mans laughter

cheers :)

Happy
5th-June-2009, 02:01 PM
From post #179

Mr Campbell has asked for a five-year jail term for Watson, with the possibility of parole after 18 months.




In sarcastic terms, this might be income protection scheme.

Fellow committed crime; chances are that when out will commit crime again.
So, sooner out (in 18 months), chances are there will be repeat income sooner too.

Hope this assumption is wrong and there must be reasonable explanation.

I wander is there a standard way to contact Government and tell them opinion?

Calliope
5th-June-2009, 05:24 PM
Christina's parents came over from America to see justice done. They have been badly let down.

pilots
5th-June-2009, 05:39 PM
He can't say it was a accident, so it must be murder, and he gets five years, AUSTRALIA IS A JOKE.

Wysiwyg
5th-June-2009, 06:09 PM
Christina's parents came over from America to see justice done. They have been badly let down.

I am outraged at this judgement and sentencing. :mad::mad:

Green08
5th-June-2009, 06:34 PM
Capital Punishment :) for the bastards

I know a woman who works with 'inmates' - perhaps her sense of reality has been warped as she would "care for them" them anyday. Free medical, medicine, accomodation, Austar, they get PAID. Taking our resources to fix their self inflicted (or :rolleyes:) with medical surgery over people needing real surgery.

Australian prisons like the Bangkok Hilton instead of the Hilton, when do we start.

I work with disabled clients and would gladly give them assistance anyday. Yet they get a pretty rough go in comparison to 'inmates'.

gav
5th-June-2009, 06:47 PM
WTF ?????? the prosecutor asks for only 5 years with parole after 18 months??????????

Perhaps he'd been planning it for quiet some time. He knew if he did that in his own country he'd face the chair. So he thought 'how about a honeymoon in Australia, I can get rid of her and be a free man in less than 2yrs'....

scanspeak
5th-June-2009, 06:52 PM
From what I gathered on ACA, it seems the guy panicked and failed in his duty of care as a "scuba buddy".
If that's the case then 12 months seems reasonable.
Has a motive been established?

Wysiwyg
5th-June-2009, 07:10 PM
From what I gathered on ACA, it seems the guy panicked and failed in his duty of care as a "scuba buddy".
If that's the case then 12 months seems reasonable.
Has a motive been established?

My experience with advanced s.c.u.b.a. diving is the one panicking is the person in distress. The buddy, as in "any" call for help does what they can. Matter of fact complete strangers over-turn cars to get people free of danger.

Do you not see through this person?

scanspeak
5th-June-2009, 07:13 PM
I'm trying to understand the reasoning of the court.
I've personally witnessed people freeze or panic in serious situations.

What bothers me most is motive, or the lack of one

Wysiwyg
5th-June-2009, 07:27 PM
I'm trying to understand the reasoning of the court.
I've personally witnessed people freeze or panic in serious situations.

What bothers me most is motive, or the lack of one

What motivates any killing? Power, money, anger and pure enjoyment of doing it. Psychological assessment won`t show anything because his script is well prepared. Truth is via agreement.

scanspeak
5th-June-2009, 09:48 PM
It just doesnt make any sense, they were on their honeymoon.
As far as I can see, there's not enough evidence for a full murder conviction..

Julia
5th-June-2009, 09:58 PM
I wander is there a standard way to contact Government and tell them opinion?
Yes. Just contact Justice Department.


He can't say it was a accident, so it must be murder, and he gets five years, AUSTRALIA IS A JOKE.
I'd guess that he did a deal before agreeing to come back to Australia, i.e. he'd plead guilty to manslaughter but not murder. As far as Australia is concerned, this wraps the case up. Tick that one off. Next please.
Justice for the girl is not really a consideration it seems.


I'm trying to understand the reasoning of the court.
I've personally witnessed people freeze or panic in serious situations.

What bothers me most is motive, or the lack of one
There have been reports of his having discussions with the insurance company prior to coming out here. It hasn't been made clear whether he increased the life insurance on his wife.
You'd think the prosecution was unable to prove such a motive, or they'd not have agreed to the manslaughter plea.

Wysiwyg
5th-June-2009, 09:58 PM
It just doesnt make any sense, they were on their honeymoon.
As far as I can see, there's not enough evidence for a full murder conviction..

Perfect. Why was an accident never a certainty?

MrBurns
6th-June-2009, 11:06 PM
From the ABC web site, Justice Australian style.



Attorney-General considers scuba sentence appeal
Posted 3 hours 5 minutes ago
Updated 2 hours 32 minutes ago

Map: Townsville 4810
The Queensland Attorney-General is considering an appeal against the sentence handed down to an American man jailed over the death of his wife in 2006.

David Gabriel Watson was sentenced to 4.5 years jail, after pleading guilty to the manslaughter of his wife Tina while diving off Townsville in north Queensland.

His jail term will be suspended after 12 months.

Tina Watson's family and the State Opposition have criticised the sentence.

In a statement, the Attorney-General Cameron Dick said he has requested the sentencing remarks, with a view to considering an appeal.

Christina Watson's father, sister and best friend say they travelled from the US to see justice served but are feeling bitterly disappointed.

"We are in total shock over what has transpired," Ms Watson's father Tommy Thomas said.

In October 2003, 26-year-old Ms Watson was on her honeymoon in north Queensland when she and her husband David went diving on Yongala wreck off Townsville.

The newlywed had problems breathing.

The court heard her 32-year-old husband, who was also her dive buddy, did nothing to help despite holding a dive search and rescue certificate.

Watson said he panicked and surfaced to tell the crew while his wife sank to the ocean floor.

The American voluntarily returned to Queensland last month, indicating he was prepared to face a murder charge.

However, the prosecution accepted his guilty plea to the lesser charge of manslaughter.

Defence lawyer Stephen Zillman argued that investigators had all the evidence they needed to charge Watson six years ago when his wife died.

Mr Zillman said since then Watson has endured public accusations of crimes he did not commit.

Justice Peter Lyons said Watson alone was responsible for his wife's death.

He said he failed to make any reasonable attempt to take Ms Watson to the surface.

"It's an embarrassment to, I think, everyone involved," Mr Thomas said.

He says his family will continue to fight for justice

- ABC/AAP

Stan 101
9th-June-2009, 10:45 AM
From what I gathered on ACA, it seems the guy panicked and failed in his duty of care as a "scuba buddy".
If that's the case then 12 months seems reasonable.
Has a motive been established?

It is plausible the man plead guilty to manslaughter after discussions with legal representatives. He was trialled and presumed guilty by the media and public at large very early in the piece. This may not have given him or his legal team much heart in proving innocence.

He may have weighed up the pros and cons of trial and figured the costs of defending himself during a long trial would ruin him financially and decided 1 year of incarceration would mean he can still keep his house, car whatever. 1 year and he could start to rebuild his life.

Now, people make poor judgement calls all the time; often in extreme situations. Nobody knows how they will react in scenarios. You can plan for it. A vast majority of motorcyclists wound not be dead if they had control of their reactions to an unexpected scenario. Many of them have had specific training.

To claim a PADI rescue course is the only prerequisite to give one sound mind and judgement to rescue those in precarious situations is lunacy. The course is nothing more than the basic level search tactic, bringing up an unconcious diver from no more than 18 metres of water (generally 12 metres) with emphasis on slow ascent to not impose self injury.

The Padi manual also emphasises a panicked diver should be avoided at all costs, to kick them away and not attempt to help them if you can not safely get near the panicked one without endangering yourself.

Now this man had his mask kicked off in the incident. To be a rescue diver you need a minimum 20 dives. Any real training on such a situation doesn't happen until the Dive Master rating and then the task loading in minimal and in a safe controlled envioroment like the deep end of a swimming pool.

Has it ever occured to the media and community at large that this guy simply may have royally screwed up on that dive and as a consequence lost his life partner. Could it be that he is now going to have to play out that dive over and over again for the rest of his life knowing he made a really bad judgement call. Maybe he feels he needs to be found guilty of something to revieve the burden of ultimate loss through poor judgement? Qld police prosecution couldn't prove beyond all reasonable doubt premeditation or there is no way they would have entered negotiations.


This post is no more than just heresay and imagination, like most other reports, but it is certainly plausible. To admit guilt does not nessesarily mean guilty. Judge Judy is wrong!!

Walk a mile in a man's shoes........


cheers,

MrBurns
9th-June-2009, 10:53 AM
It is plausible the man plead guilty to manslaughter after discussions with legal representatives. He was trialled and presumed guilty by the media and public at large very early in the piece. This may not have given him or his legal team much heart in proving innocence.

He may have weighed up the pros and cons of trial and figured the costs of defending himself during a long trial would ruin him financially and decided 1 year of incarceration would mean he can still keep his house, car whatever. 1 year and he could start to rebuild his life.

Now, people make poor judgement calls all the time; often in extreme situations. Nobody knows how they will react in scenarios. You can plan for it. A vast majority of motorcyclists wound not be dead if they had control of their reactions to an unexpected scenario. Many of them have had specific training.

To claim a PADI rescue course is the only prerequisite to give one sound mind and judgement to rescue those in precarious situations is lunacy. The course is nothing more than the basic level search tactic, bringing up an unconcious diver from less than 18 metres of water (generally 12 metres) with emphasis on slow ascent to not impose self injury.

The Padi manual also emphasises a panicked diver should be avoided at all costs, to kick them away and not attempt to help them if you can not safely get near the panicked one without endangering yourself.

Now this man had his mask kicked off in the incident. To be a rescue diver you need a minimum 20 dives. Any real training on such a situation doesn't happen until the Dive Master rating and then the task loading in minimal and in a safe controlled envioroment like the deep end of a swimming pool.

Has it ever occured to the media and community at large that this guy simply may have royally screwed up on that dive and as a consequence lost his life partner. Could it be that he is now going to have to play out that dive over and over again for the rest of his life knowing he made a really bad judgement call. Maybe he feels he needs to be found guilty of something to revieve the burden of ultimate loss through poor judgement? Qld police prosecution couldn't prove beyond all reasonable doubt premeditation or there is no way they would have entered negotiations.


This post is no more than just heresay and imagination, like most other reports, but it is certainly plausible. To admit guilt does not nessesarily mean guilty. Judge Judy is wrong!!

Walk a mile in a man's shoes........


cheers,

He must have screwed up big time to be charged with anything, if it was plainly an accident it would have been obvious I imagine, there must have been a lot to go on to charge him in the first place.

Stan 101
9th-June-2009, 12:08 PM
He must have screwed up big time to be charged with anything,
He was found guity of being derelict in his duty as a dive buddy. His apparent crime was to do the wrong thing by heading to the surface for help.



if it was plainly an accident it would have been obvious I imagine,
Who says there was an accident? If there was one, why and how would it be obvious? There was certainly an incident or a turn of events that led to a woman's death underwater. The events aren't clear and probably will never be known.


there must have been a lot to go on to charge him in the first place.

Clearly there wasn't or there would not been a plea bargin. No conclusive evidence was found. One could argue he was not derelict in his duty and simply followed the Padi handbook and sought immediate help from the closest dive co ordinator who just happened to be on the surface.

He claimed his mask had been dislodged and therefore was effectively blind. Add that to the already heavy burden of having a destressed buddy and the task loading climbs dramatically. The surface may have been his best option under the conditions.
People react strangely underwater, that's why there are so many fatalities inside shipwrecks and caves. Panic sets in and normally rational people lose it at the slightest hurdle.





This whole thing is quite a mystery the more one thinks about it.


The facts:
Woman found dead face down on the ocean floor. There is photo evidence of this. Weight belt and BCD still on.
Air in the tank at a standard mix, gauges were working as was the regulator stages.
New divers generally head to the surface when panic sets in. They are also generally underweighted therefore the tendancy is to float as the tank empties during the dive.
Photo evidence also shows visability to be quite good on the dive. That sandy bottom is in thirty metres of water.

Assumptions:

Mike Ball, the dive operator's ships are large and one would assume plenty of divers in the drink at the time of the incident.
Visability was good.
The dive site is just the wreck on a sandy featureless bottom. People dive around the wreck only. Generally in big groups some go clockwise and others go anticlockwise from the stern.
Experienced divers will start deep and then spiral up to the top of the wreck in about 15 metres of water. The top of the wreck is the port side as she is sitting on her starboard side.
Inexperienced divers go along the top of the wreck (port side) so they are hanging out in 15 metres.
2 minutes as a general rule, is the time we can survive without air. without air.

Questions:

For this man to have committed murder, he needed to do a few things.
1. He needed to deny the girl air for a set period of time. 2. He needed to restrain her whilst she drowned without causing bruising and without both he and she floating to the surface (a common scenario) or sinking to the bottom, and do this without anyone noticing. How did he acheive this?
To accomplish good bouyancy whist restraining an unwilling diver is no mean feat and would need an experienced diver with really good bouyancy IMO. If she wasn't being restrained whilst being murdered, one would suggest she would bolt to the surface.

Did she over breath the regulator? There are a lot of thermoclines (layers of differing water temperature) around the Yongala and some are cold enough to bring on migraines during a dive for some. Much like the pain one feels sometimes eating really cold ice cream. Overbreathing the reg happens when a panicked diver trys to suck too much air too quickly than the regulator was designed to offer. Cheap rental gear is often the worst. You need to try hard to overbreath even basic regs these days, but it can be done.


There are a lot more points that need to be thought through on this.


Is he guilty?

MrBurns
9th-June-2009, 12:22 PM
I dont think you can charge someone for not being a "good dive buddy" BUT if she got into trouble and he deliberately didnt help her when he could have thats different and could be seen as murder by inaction, and did he assist in her getting into trouble ?, if you're a diver you'd know how very easily you could drown a novice by panicking them.

Stan 101
9th-June-2009, 12:38 PM
if you're a diver you'd know how very easily you could drown a novice by panicking them.


Yes I am and no I don't understand how a novice diver could be easily drowned by panicking them. I have no such idea or even an inkling of how that could happen.
To do that the regulator must fall out or the mouth and can not be regathered, the occy or backup reg must not be in position, the diver must be grossly overweighted to not float (generally speaking).

Panicked divers shoot to the surface as part of the four F responses (fight, fright, flight and making love).

A CESA from 15 metres for a panicked diver is a doddle and a natural response. 30 metres in a panicked situation is very simple.

MrBurns
9th-June-2009, 12:41 PM
A CESA from 15 metres for a panicked diver is a doddle and a natural response. 30 metres in a panicked situation is very simple.

Not if they get a lung full of water surely.

happytown
9th-June-2009, 12:41 PM
what is mens rea

what is actus reus

what are the elements of murder

what are the elements of manslaughter

what is the burden of proof and who bears it

what defences (if any) are available

what tests are applied (subjective, objective)

my learned friends

cheers :)

Stan 101
9th-June-2009, 12:46 PM
Yes, surely. Thousands of case studies and incident reports by both D.A.N. and D.E.S. can't be wrong.

The gasping or breathing response is not caused by the need for oxygen but rather from the build up of carbon dioxide.
When people breath compressed air somewhere in the water column and then start ascent, the air will naturally expand causing the expulsion of gases in the lungs to maintain equlibrium. The ascent continues as the expansion of the gases inside the bouyancy device takes place. It it very difficult for a diver to remove all air from a BCD and nigh impossible for a novice diver to do it. Often this is another factor in why novice divers float whether they want to or not. They are generally reffer to as "floaters" in the wider diving community.

MrBurns
9th-June-2009, 12:49 PM
Yes, surely. Thousands of case studies and accident reports by both D.A.N. and D.E.S. can't be wrong.

Well if thats the case perhaps he is guilty of more then just neglecting his duty as a dive buddy, you have to wonder why someone would murder their spouse on their honeymoon though, was there a motive ?

Stan 101
9th-June-2009, 01:02 PM
what is mens rea

what is actus reus


cheers :)

I'm far from learned in the concepts of law, but a guilty mind (?) in this case would be very dificult to prove, no?

Sure, there was talk of increased insurance policy before the honeymoon to a foriegn location. Who wouldn't consider more life insurance after gaining a spouse and posible soon to forthcoming offspring?

Stan 101
9th-June-2009, 01:04 PM
Well if thats the case perhaps he is guilty of more then just neglecting his duty as a dive buddy, you have to wonder why someone would murder their spouse on their honeymoon though, was there a motive ?


Where is one scrap of evidence that points to murder or even negligence as a dive buddy for that matter?

As noted earlier, he shot to the surface to sound an alarm, quite possibly as per PADI standards to the letter.

happytown
9th-June-2009, 01:37 PM
not far off stan101

mens rea is the mental element in an offence

eg intent to cause grievous bodily harm

actus reus is the act itself, the physical element

eg intent to cause grievous bodily harm

murder requires mens rea

in nsw for eg (recognising the discussed incident occured in qld) to attract a prosecution for murder (s 18(1)(a)) the prosecution would have to be of the opinion that they can prove (beyond a reasonable doubt) that the defendant

intended to unlawfully kill the victim and did in fact unlawfully kill the victim;
intended to cause greivous bodily harm to the victim and this unlawfully killed the victim; or
under the felony murder rule, commit an offence that attracts a 20-year sentence and during the commission of said offence someone is unlawfully killed

in the above i refer to unlawful killing to distinguish it from eg killing in self defence (whereupon the burden of proof switches to the defendant who must prove self defence (involving a subjective and objective test - ie subjectively insofar as the defendant feared for their life and objectively insofar as the action taken by the defendant in self defence was that which a reasonable person would undertake)) which is lawful killing

manslaughter (s 18(1)(b)) is basically any unlawful killing that is not murder and can include such things as provocation and negligence etc

as to beyond a reasonable doubt, the simplest way to broach this is

do you have a doubt (if no, it is beyond reasonable doubt, if yes ...)
is it reasonable to have that doubt

manslaughter is always an alternative verdict available in a murder trial

note well the above information is correct to the best of my knowledge insofar as the criminal law in nsw as at 3 years ago (when i had to sit through 2 semesters of it)

cheers :)

Stan 101
9th-June-2009, 01:52 PM
Thanks, Happytown. Very insightful.

In the text it mentioned negligence causing death could be contituted as manslaughter. How is negligence measured? Bear with me and I'll try to explain the best I can, what I mean.

A man is standing on a train track and a train is fast approaching from behind that clearly will not stop and will surely hit the man if he does not move. A second man is close enough to make his way to the man on the tracks and move them both to safety before the train can injure them.

The second man does not offer assistance due to shock or fear or some primal response. The first man is hit by the train and dies.

Could, in your opinion based on your knowledge of law, the second man be tried due to his inactions?
Is there any difference to being "frozen" by fear and not assisting someone and simply refusing to assist? How are the two types of inactivity differentiated?


Cheers,

happytown
9th-June-2009, 06:00 PM
In the text it mentioned negligence causing death could be contituted as manslaughter. How is negligence measured? Bear with me and I'll try to explain the best I can, what I mean.

A man is standing on a train track and a train is fast approaching from behind that clearly will not stop and will surely hit the man if he does not move. A second man is close enough to make his way to the man on the tracks and move them both to safety before the train can injure them.

The second man does not offer assistance due to shock or fear or some primal response. The first man is hit by the train and dies.

Could, in your opinion based on your knowledge of law, the second man be tried due to his inactions?
Is there any difference to being "frozen" by fear and not assisting someone and simply refusing to assist? How are the two types of inactivity differentiated?

Cheers,

stan101

re negligent manslaughter by ommission (specifically by ommission, there is a separate negligent manslaughter - i had to go back and re-read textbooks on this - ugghhhhhhh, upon doing this i realise i should have given a better explanation of manslaughter generally, some other time)

i guess it is not beyond the realm of possibility that the person in your fact scenario could be tried, however it would need a teasing out of the facts as they currently stand (in your scenario) to determine whether or not a conviction would be likely or not

the test for negligent manslaughter by ommission

(the second person in your scenario) must be under a legally recognised duty to act; and
(the second person in your scenario) must have failed to act/fulfil the duty in a way that constitutes a high degree of negligence (ie it must be a gross departure from the standard of care expected of a reasonable person (objective test) in the same position as the second person was in); and
the ommission resulted in the death (of the first person in your scenario)

some examples of a legally recognised duty to act include (but are not limited to):

child/parent relationship;
voluntary assumption of care for helplesss persons;
where a person has created a situation of danger by dealing with dangerous things or doing dangerous acts

note negligent manslaughter by ommission does not require mens rea

unless there was a legally recognisable duty to act it is irrelevant whether the second person in your scenario was too afraid or refused to assist

note, discussed here is a legally recognisable duty to act, not a moral duty to act

if there was a legally recognisable duty to act then there would be much argument as to whether the second person's fear or refusal constitutes a high degree of negligence (as discussed above)

i have not read the judgment in this case and can't therefore comment on the trial judge's findings (and not all reporters understand legal reasoning)

cheers :)

Happy
9th-June-2009, 06:13 PM
Fantastic, so many places to make interpretation, so many possibilities for loopholes, so much money to be made.

What it is lacking is old-fashioned common sense.

Stan 101
9th-June-2009, 06:26 PM
HappyTown,

Thanks again for taking the time to explain that so well.


Cheers,

scanspeak
9th-June-2009, 11:28 PM
Great to see some balanced and knowledgeable opinions here, rather than the tabloid reactions of late.

Sunder
10th-June-2009, 12:13 AM
Where is one scrap of evidence that points to murder or even negligence as a dive buddy for that matter?

As noted earlier, he shot to the surface to sound an alarm, quite possibly as per PADI standards to the letter.

It's all allegations at the moment, but apparently she had a US$160,000 life insurance policy - which he tried to raise just before they left for their honeymoon.

Edit: What also bothers me about this case, is that between two divers, they should have four regulators. How many failed?

15m is also not enough to cause lethal decompression issues... The guy was a rescue diver, which is kind of like having your doctorate, compared to having a diploma for just a regular PADI certified diver. Shouldn't he have known this?

MrBurns
10th-June-2009, 09:42 AM
It's all allegations at the moment, but apparently she had a US$160,000 life insurance policy - which he tried to raise just before they left for their honeymoon.

Edit: What also bothers me about this case, is that between two divers, they should have four regulators. How many failed?

15m is also not enough to cause lethal decompression issues... The guy was a rescue diver, which is kind of like having your doctorate, compared to having a diploma for just a regular PADI certified diver. Shouldn't he have known this?

The above leads me to think he is guilty and as usual the AU courts are just pussies. Hope the Yanks pull them into line.

Happy
10th-June-2009, 01:16 PM
The above leads me to think he is guilty and as usual the AU courts are just pussies. Hope the Yanks pull them into line.

+1 !

happytown
10th-June-2009, 01:50 PM
are you looking for something to do this winter!!!!

something exciting !!!

something inexpensive!!!!

something educational!!!!

are you sick of criticising something you don't understand !!!!

then make your way down to your local district or supreme court, where you can have a front row seat in the criminal trial of your choice

where you get to see the legal system in action, first hand

cheer on as the hanging judge measures up the noose!!!

who knows you may even learn something

the public are allowed to watch almost (a miniscule fraction of very particular trials will for specified times be 'closed to the public') all of a trial from start to finish, entry free

cheers :)

Aargh!
10th-June-2009, 02:32 PM
I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.

Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?

She offers leniency to Aboriginals and has said "The gross over-representation of indigenous people in our prisons and detention centres is unacceptable" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Bradley_(Judge) ). This mentality has skewed her sentencing.

If someone is a criminal they should be treated as such no matter how many of that race makes up the population of prisons!

MrBurns
10th-June-2009, 03:01 PM
I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.

Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?

She offers leniency to Aboriginals and has said "The gross over-representation of indigenous people in our prisons and detention centres is unacceptable" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Bradley_(Judge) ). This mentality has skewed her sentencing.

If someone is a criminal they should be treated as such no matter how many of that race makes up the population of prisons!

Agreed, and throw a lot more of her learned bewigged fools of colleagues out with her and the sooner the better.

Timmy
10th-June-2009, 03:50 PM
I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.

Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?

She offers leniency to Aboriginals and has said "The gross over-representation of indigenous people in our prisons and detention centres is unacceptable" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Bradley_(Judge) ). This mentality has skewed her sentencing.

If someone is a criminal they should be treated as such no matter how many of that race makes up the population of prisons!

She said the 10 year-old probably agreed? What a disgrace.

Aargh!
10th-June-2009, 04:00 PM
She said the 10 year-old probably agreed? What a disgrace.

Sure did! "I accept that the girl involved, with respect to all of these matters, was not forced, and that she probably agreed to have sex with all of you. "
http://www.news.com.au/heraldsun/story/0,21985,22897644-661,00.html

There are dozens of other cases where Sarah Bradley has give sentences that have infuriated me.

happytown
10th-June-2009, 05:06 PM
I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.

Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?

lawyer: your honour, the prosecution can't even get the facts as to the young girl in question's age right. i contend this brings into question the other "facts" (cough! cough!) as alleged

judge (to prosecutor): well

prosecutor (fumbling around, dropping papers): ummm darrrhh hmmmm

lawyer: your honour the defence moves for immediate dismissal on all charges

judge: [insert wikipedia quotes here] case dismissed, will you be seeking costs

lawyer: indeedalee doodalee neighbourino

judge: awseome

lawyer: cheque please

[the preceding bears no resemblance to any actual court proceedings in australia, involving persons either living or dead, no reproduction without express permission]


If someone is a criminal they should be treated as such no matter how many of that race makes up the population of prisons!the judiciary, in their bag of criminal sanctions, have more than just incarceration to call upon when dealing with criminals

a strength of our legal system (here, the criminal legal system) is the capacity to appeal (on points of law and the sentence handed down) to courts further up the legal hierarchy

cheers :)

TCB
10th-June-2009, 05:51 PM
I would like to bring attention to the disgraceful Judge Sarah Bradley of Cairns. This woman is out of touch with reality and needs to be booted from the system. This is the judge that let loose the 9 (yes nine!) teenagers raped a 10 year old girl in Aurukun.

Sarah Bradley stated that the nine year old girl "probably agreed" to have sex with all nine. Now how would a nine year old possibly be capable of this decision!?

She offers leniency to Aboriginals and has said "The gross over-representation of indigenous people in our prisons and detention centres is unacceptable" (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sarah_Bradley_(Judge) ). This mentality has skewed her sentencing.

If someone is a criminal they should be treated as such no matter how many of that race makes up the population of prisons!

Well pointed out Aargh but there were 6 teenagers and three adults with the oldest of the adults being 26 years of age. This Judge like a majority is out of touch and out of control. Yes she still works in the same job and still presides in Cairns which takes in all of Cape York. And yes she is still handing out the feather duster for punishment.:banghead:

As reported on 10/12/2007
"Judge Bradley said Woolla was the oldest and should have known a lot better.

"You cannot have sex with anyone under 16," she said.

"However, as I said before, I am not treating anyone any differently in terms of being a ringleader, and in your case, again, I will impose a sentence of imprisonment but it will be wholly suspended so you do not go to jail today.

"But if you get into more trouble in the next year, you could end up in jail."

Woolla had been arrested on August 7, 2006, and the judge said the 14 days he spent in custody awaiting his sentence was to count as "imprisonment already served".

When sentencing the juveniles, Justice Bradley said: "All of you have pleaded guilty to having sex with a 10-year-old girl and (one of the juveniles) has pleaded guilty to having sex with another young girl as well.

"All of you have to understand that you cannot have sex with a girl under 16.

"If you do, you are breaking the law, and if you are found out, then you will be brought to court and could end up in jail.

"I accept that the girl involved, with respect to all of these matters, was not forced, and that she probably agreed to have sex with all of you.

"But you were taking advantage of a 10-year-old girl and she needs to be protected, and the girls generally in this community need to be protected.

"This is a very serious matter.

"It is a very shameful matter and I hope that all of you realise that you must not have sex with young girls.

"Anyone under 16 is too young.

"Some of you are still children yourselves.

"Others of you are adults but I am treating you all equally in terms of the behaviour.

"I am not treating any of you as the ringleader or anything like that."

She asked each prisoner to stand up and said she hoped they would realise it was wrong to have sex with young girls.

Justice Bradley then offered them probation and when each agreed to accept that, she said she would not record a conviction.

To one of the juveniles, she said: "You are still a child. You have pleaded guilty to one offence of rape.

"You have been in a lot of trouble in the past, though, and you still have some community service to do.

"You have not been doing that well. I am prepared to offer you probation but you have got to stick with the rules of probation."

The juvenile agreed and was then placed on 12 months' probation, with no conviction recorded. "

Calliope
3rd-July-2009, 01:56 PM
http://www.thepunch.com.au/


The evil men do and the courts that ignore it.

One of the first of the sadly limited number of court cases arising from the death of Dianne Brimble on a Pacific Sky cruise came to an end this week.

Its conclusion achieved nothing, other than to reinforce the public belief in the cavernous divide between community standards and the sentencing practices of the judiciary.

While there are other cases on the horizon which cannot legally be the subject of discussion here, the unsatisfactory conclusion of this weekís case involving one of the ďBrimble EightĒ, the execrable Leo Silvestri, has raised the worst case scenario surrounding the shocking death of this young woman.

Namely that the plodding nature of justice and the pernickety application of the law Ė all these things may conspire to ensure that no-one faces any genuine punishment over that fact that a woman was left for dead in a drugged stupor on the cold linoleum floor of a cheap cruise ship.

Julia
3rd-July-2009, 10:32 PM
I heard on the radio that he (or one of them) received a suspended sentence.
They were a particularly disgusting group of parasites.

MrBurns
4th-July-2009, 09:48 AM
I think there's a very real case for forming a Star Chamber here -

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086356/

Count me in.

Garpal Gumnut
4th-July-2009, 10:42 AM
I think there's a very real case for forming a Star Chamber here -

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0086356/

Count me in.

Be careful Burnsie.

Star Chambers are yer Iran and Laden ways of dispening justice.

The judge in this case may have decided that the whole community was so stuffed that a message needed to be sent , via her closing remarks.

It is possible that behind the court , as the sentence was being read, another child was being molested by an elder.

One of my girlfriends is a judge, I won't say where, and on the pillow she worries about each and every judgement she makes. She is a good person and like this judge in Cairns has to adjudicate over many bizarre manifestations of human behaviour and culture.

gg

MrBurns
4th-July-2009, 03:01 PM
Be careful Burnsie.

Star Chambers are yer Iran and Laden ways of dispening justice.

gg

No they're just barbarians, nothing just about anything they do.
Star Chamber 09' would just clear the streets of scum because the courts are impotent.

Calliope
4th-July-2009, 04:07 PM
One of my girlfriends is a judge, I won't say where, and on the pillow she worries about each and every judgement she makes.
gg

Does this judge of yours know that you are driving an unregistered vehicle?

Happy
10th-July-2009, 10:31 AM
From abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/07/10/

SIEGE MAN KNOWN TO POLICE

Police say the man involved in a siege in South Australia's north-east yesterday was known to them.
The incident began on Thursday morning when the man stabbed an officer near Peterborough before stealing his patrol car and hitting a pedestrian.
He then assaulted an elderly woman he took hostage at a nearby property.
She was able to escape and alert police.
The siege ended at 7.30pm when police entered the house and found the man dead.
Police believe the 32-year-old died from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.
Assistant commissioner Graham Barton says the man was on parole and had been involved in two other sieges in recent years.
"He has a previous history with us, and the fact that he was involved with two previous sieges with us over a period of time made us extra careful in the way that we approached the matter," he said.
Commissioner Barton says the three victims of Thursday's siege remain in a stable condition.




It is all well in reactive approach to crime, but isnít it time to be more proactive and have known to police or known former criminals under better control?

Or maybe even excluded from community altogether until completely reformed?

trainspotter
17th-July-2009, 12:08 PM
As some of you are aware I own a pearl farm. I also have a shop that sells my pearls once they have been created into fine jewellery. I asked the sales staff to perform a stock take on the 2nd of July. Whilst going about their duties one of the cabinets was left open. In walks a very shifty looking criminal type who swipes a $2000 ring out of the cabinet whilst staff are looking the other way. THREE CCTV cameras watch his every move. Police are called. Video evidence handed over. They pick up the lowlife scumbag who swiped my piece of jewellery within 48 hours because "He was known to them". Goes to court and the learned judge gives this bottom dwelling felcher a 3 month good behaviour bond. He is also ordered to pay restitution of $10 a fortnight. This will only take him 7 years and 7 months to pay me back. Heres the kicker. He only has to make 2 payments and then plead financial hardship and payments are suspended indefinitely. It is then up to me to go to the Clerk of Courts and pay $80 to get the bailiff to go and follow him up for my money. What happened to the ring you may ask? Never to be seen again. GREAT STUFF. Oh yeah .... the staff member that left the cabinet open has just informed me she is going on holidays to Italy for a month. Pffffffffffffttttttttt !!! Justice for all !

Ageo
17th-July-2009, 12:20 PM
As some of you are aware I own a pearl farm. I also have a shop that sells my pearls once they have been created into fine jewellery. I asked the sales staff to perform a stock take on the 2nd of July. Whilst going about their duties one of the cabinets was left open. In walks a very shifty looking criminal type who swipes a $2000 ring out of the cabinet whilst staff are looking the other way. THREE CCTV cameras watch his every move. Police are called. Video evidence handed over. They pick up the lowlife scumbag who swiped my piece of jewellery within 48 hours because "He was known to them". Goes to court and the learned judge gives this bottom dwelling felcher a 3 month good behaviour bond. He is also ordered to pay restitution of $10 a fortnight. This will only take him 7 years and 7 months to pay me back. Heres the kicker. He only has to make 2 payments and then plead financial hardship and payments are suspended indefinitely. It is then up to me to go to the Clerk of Courts and pay $80 to get the bailiff to go and follow him up for my money. What happened to the ring you may ask? Never to be seen again. GREAT STUFF. Oh yeah .... the staff member that left the cabinet open has just informed me she is going on holidays to Italy for a month. Pffffffffffffttttttttt !!! Justice for all !


Trainspotter, unfortunately in our game (jewellery, gold etc..) the only form of justice is your own. Ill leave it at that

trainspotter
17th-July-2009, 12:22 PM
Plan B is already underway Ageo *wink wink*

nunthewiser
17th-July-2009, 12:53 PM
Mmmmmmmmm

sounds like an insider setup job to me trainspotter


happy to investigate and get to the bottom of this problem for a mere 5 k :D

can start monday:D

oh and full board and alcohol is expected so stock up

Calliope
17th-July-2009, 12:53 PM
A corrupt Qld politician is convicted as guilty on 36 charges of corruptly receiving $360,000. The maximum sentence is seven years, although apparently this is the sentence for each charge.

Today the Judge, Patsy Wolfe sentenced him to seven years. She said he had mitigating circumstance. He hadn't been caught before. He and his family were suffering from humiliation. He was cooperative with the police, etc.

He also put on a display of crocodile tears during the trial, but that didn't fool the jury who returned the guilty verdict in two hours.

The punchline is... he will be out in two and a half years for good behaviour.

Ageo
17th-July-2009, 02:03 PM
Plan B is already underway Ageo *wink wink*

Make sure you use cigar cutters as they work wonders :D

MrBurns
20th-July-2009, 02:17 PM
It's about time someone stood up and said the bleeding obvious - these Judges are in fairy land........



Jail urged over violent child attack
Posted 10 minutes ago

Map: Adelaide 5000
South Australia's Director of Public Prosecutions has personally argued that the man who kicked his young child, lacerating his liver, be ordered to serve his suspended sentence.

Troy Levi Galffy, 34, last year admitted to recklessly causing harm to his son at Munno Para in 2006.

Judge Sydney Tilmouth suspended a two-and-a-half year sentence, largely because Galffy was his family's main breadwinner.

Stephen Pallaras today told the Court of Criminal Appeal that the only proper penalty for Galffy's conduct was an immediate jail term.

Mr Pallaras said the judge had failed the community, the justice system and the injured child, who could have died from the attack.

Mr Pallaras said there was no-one else other than the courts to send a harsh message to anyone inclined to abuse children, that such behaviour would not be tolerated.

The court has reserved its decision.

veni_vedi_vici
20th-July-2009, 04:53 PM
I have many questions:

Why barristers take cases, know that offenders did the crime and use loopholes to get accused of the hook, donít they have conscience?



It's called the cab rank rule, a barrister cannot refuse to take a case unless their are special circumstances.

veni_vedi_vici
20th-July-2009, 05:03 PM
Mr Burns,

Do something proactive, become a judge then you can clean the streets up as you see fit:rolleyes:.

GumbyLearner
29th-July-2009, 01:52 AM
I wonder what principles were used in the sentencing of these individuals.

Her worship has certainly used some very descriptive adjectives to describe this senseless attack and robbery.

I hope the DPP will be appealing this one.

_dIkf0k747c

http://www.theage.com.au/national/assault-by-former-refugees-savage-20090728-e09w.html

Mohamed was jailed for 22 months with a minimum of 13 months, which included three months for breaching an earlier suspended sentence.

Mentel was jailed for 18 months with a minimum of nine months and Kiir for 17 months with a minimum of seven months, with all three terms to be served less time served on remand since February.

MrBurns
29th-July-2009, 09:29 AM
I wonder what principles were used in the sentencing of these individuals.

Her worship has certainly used some very descriptive adjectives to describe this senseless attack and robbery.

I hope the DPP will be appealing this one.

Mohamed was jailed for 22 months with a minimum of 13 months, which included three months for breaching an earlier suspended sentence.

Mentel was jailed for 18 months with a minimum of nine months and Kiir for 17 months with a minimum of seven months, with all three terms to be served less time served on remand since February.

Her worship should be sentenced to spending every night from here on on a deserted station in a bad area until she learns first hand about these matters and the maggots who did this crime should be simply shot dead.

johnnyg
29th-July-2009, 12:46 PM
In her hour-long sentencing remarks, Ms Broughton recounted how the offenders followed the man into the station tunnel underpass before Mentel punched him.

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah.

As the title of the thread, the sentences are Absolutely Disgraceful.

To Veni - Why would you want to become a judge for, the ones who hand down the tough sentences are hung out to dry, and then have their sentence overturned.

veni_vedi_vici
29th-July-2009, 12:57 PM
without judges and our legal system what would happen? All that this thread is doing is looking at the material facts of the case and the final sentence. If Mrburns and the other forums members who have posted were serious about discussing the issue at hand, they would surely visit sites such as www.austlii.edu.au to read full case scripts. You need to understand more than just the material facts of the case and the final sentence, you need to understand the various judges' reasonings (by reading their judgments) and so on. Sure our society isnt perfect, it never will be, and im not saying by any means thats judges are always correct but simply looking at the facts and sentence is not adequate if your going to make an informed and justifyable comment.

Just my :2twocents

V

GumbyLearner
29th-July-2009, 01:25 PM
without judges and our legal system what would happen? All that this thread is doing is looking at the material facts of the case and the final sentence. If Mrburns and the other forums members who have posted were serious about discussing the issue at hand, they would surely visit sites such as www.austlii.edu.au to read full case scripts. You need to understand more than just the material facts of the case and the final sentence, you need to understand the various judges' reasonings (by reading their judgments) and so on. Sure our society isnt perfect, it never will be, and im not saying by any means thats judges are always correct but simply looking at the facts and sentence is not adequate if your going to make an informed and justifyable comment.

Just my :2twocents

V

No doubt vvv.
Of course all facts need to be considered by judges.

The fact that:

Mohamed was jailed for 22 months with a minimum of 13 months, which included three months for breaching an earlier suspended sentence.


I wonder if the same mitigating circumstances (eg. background, tragic and violent past life in Africa) of the offender were put before the court when he was first convicted.

Is this an unreported judgement, I can't seem to find the reporting of this case on the web? You couldn't possibly point me in the right direction could you veni? ;)

trainspotter
29th-July-2009, 01:43 PM
Starchamber is the answer.

MrBurns
29th-July-2009, 01:49 PM
Starchamber is the answer.

I think I mentioned that while ago, count me in.

Just call me Dexter

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dexter_(TV_series)

trainspotter
29th-July-2009, 01:57 PM
A Starchamber of Dexters perhaps?

Happy
29th-July-2009, 02:01 PM
Our judges are bent on rehabilitation and special circumstances to reduce the sentence and possibly not have it recorded further increasing probability of offenders return to community.

As they say good intentions and what the reality is?

Our sentencing system is laughing stock of our crims, who long ago made their career choice and all they do now is use our limitations and restrictions and good will to abuse it to the max.

Time for wake up call? Maybe not today.

MrBurns
31st-July-2009, 09:03 AM
Another look at justice the Australian way, there's a lot to discuss at the next meeting of the Star Chamber.

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/national/844027/girl-terrified-of-rapist-grandfather


Girl 'terrified' of rapist

An eight-year-old girl is terrified because her rapist grandfather has avoided a jail sentence for 10 months.

The 67-year-old, who cannot be named, has already pleaded guilty to six counts of sexual intercourse with a child under 10, the Daily Telegraph reports.

He pleaded guilty in October last year.

But he is yet to be sentenced and has been granted bail at each of his four court appearances.

During that time, he has also been charged with stalking his granddaughter at her school.

The man's defence counsel said he was suffering from stress and dementia.

They have also questioned whether he is fit to plead to another charge of sexually assaulting his daughter, to which he has already pleaded not guilty.

The girl's mother said delays in the grandfather's sentencing had left her daughter terrified.

"She has ulcers, she is sick and I will say her name and she bounces up to the roof, she is so stressed and she is having severe nightmares," the mother was quoted as saying.

"She has moved schools, we have moved house because she wasn't comfortable because she kept thinking Poppy was going to grab her."

The girl no longer played in the playground because she was too scared.

The Director of Public Prosecutions refused to comment on the case.

veni_vedi_vici
31st-July-2009, 11:18 AM
Mr Burns,

There are many things I dont agree with you about (on this thread), but that last thread disgusted me. In my eyes that is the worst type of crime...I hope something 'bad' happens to that monster (I'm rather lost for words on how angry/annoyed that makes me feel).

V

MrBurns
11th-August-2009, 04:42 PM
Don't know who's worse the kiddy fiddler or the learned judge.


Porn maker urged others to 'snatch a child'

Posted 2 hours 26 minutes ago
Updated 58 minutes ago

The Appeal Court Justices have reserved thier decision. (ABC News: Cate Grant)

A Hobart court has heard a child pornographer used an internet chat room to encourage another person to abduct a child.

Lindsay Gordon Latham pleaded guilty to more than 90 charges, including distributing and producing child exploitation material.

The 53-year-old from New Norfolk has served a sentence of 10 months in prison, with a four-month non-parole period.

The Director of Public Prosecutions, Tim Ellis, has appealed against the sentence on the grounds that it is manifestly inadequate.

Mr Ellis told the Court of Criminal Appeal that Latham encouraged another man to "snatch a child off the street," and on another occasion told a chat room he would like to buy a three-year-old girl.
Mr Ellis said Latham's actions amounted to disturbing and brutal child exploitation.

The maximum penalty for each count of distribution and production is 21 years in prison.

The court has reserved its decision.

Buckeroo
11th-August-2009, 06:14 PM
Don't know who's worse the kiddy fiddler or the learned judge.

Yep, can't help thinking the Justice system is ruined. And I believe it will deteriorate further.

And the reason why?....it may have something to do with emotional stupidity.

We have a justice system that's similar to the US. Simply, a sentence is given depending on the following:

How much remorse & regret you have shown in court
How bad your sad sack life has been
If you are part of a minority group

So, if you grew up in a shoe box, cleaned toilets with a tooth brush for a living, emigrated from a land where everyone has purple hair and was an emotional wreak always saying sorry, you could easily beat a rap for murder.:)

So, until we get back to "do the crime, do the time" it will get worse. We are so emotionally charged these days, we are now moving into a situation where the victim is treated like the criminal & the criminal becomes the victim.

Welcome to the modern world

Cheers